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Shaffer
06-05-04, 09:37 AM
The United Nations (news - web sites)' top human rights official said on Friday abuses by U.S. soldiers of Iraqi prisoners at Baghdad's Abu Ghraib prison could amount to war crimes.

Acting High Commissioner for Human Rights Bertrand Ramcharan said U.S.-led occupation forces had committed "serious violations" of international humanitarian law in Iraq (news - web sites) and had ill-treated ordinary Iraqis.

In a report for the world body's Human Rights Commission, Ramcharan, a British-trained barrister from Guyana and long-time U.N. official, also said coalition troops were able to act with impunity and urged the appointment of an independent figure to monitor their behavior.

In a clear reference to the Abu Ghraib incidents, since when several U.S. male and female soldiers working there have been detained, Ramcharan said "willful killing, torture or inhuman treatment" of detainees was a grave breach of international law.

Such acts "might be designated as war crimes by a competent tribunal," he added.

The only U.S. soldier to face court martial so far for his role in the Abu Ghraib abuses was sent to jail for one year.

State Department spokesman Adam Ereli declined to comment on whether U.S. soldiers may have committed war crimes at Abu Ghraib and said the United States believed its soldiers should be judged within the U.S. military justice system.

Ereli said reports that U.S. forces may have mistreated ordinary Iraqis were troubling and Washington would ask for more details.

The United States has refused to sign a 1998 treaty creating the world's first permanent global war crimes tribunal.

The United States was one of 135 nations to sign the treaty under former President Bill Clinton (news - web sites). But President Bush (news - web sites)'s administration rescinded the signature, fearing the court could bring politically motivated or frivolous cases against U.S. troops serving on foreign soil.

The 45-page report cited one former Abu Ghraib detainee, Saddam Abood Al-Rawi, 29, as telling U.N. investigators he was subjected to 18 days of torture at the U.S.-run prison.

This included the pulling of teeth, kicking and beating and threats of rape, and warnings he would be killed if he told a visiting international Red Cross team about his treatment.

The report quoted Rawi as saying that he suffered physical torture when he was held at an Iraqi prison under ousted president Saddam Hussein (news - web sites). But under U.S.-led occupation forces, he was additionally subjected to "humiliation and mental cruelty."

CRITICIZED AS "LIGHT"

"The serious violations of human rights and humanitarian law that have taken place (since U.S. and British troops invaded Iraq in March last year and ousted then President Saddam Hussein) must not be allowed to recur," the report said.

But the report, which asserted that "everyone accepts" that the U.S. and its allies intended their troops in Iraq to behave well, drew criticism from Reed Brody, special counsel to the U.S.-based Human Rights Watch organization.

"It seems very light, and to bend over backwards to accept the good faith of the U.S.," he told Reuters by telephone. "I don't think it is the place of the U.N. human rights office to evaluate the intentions of a state or group of states."



Ramcharan's spokesman, Jose Luis Diaz, denied there had been any outside effort to have the report watered down. "There was no pressure on this office," he told Reuters.

Ramcharan suggested that among the more serious violations was the jailing of large numbers of Iraqis without anyone's knowledge and without any reasons being given.

His report, submitted to U.S. and British officials for comment on Wednesday, cited Iraqis interviewed in Amman as speaking of "arbitrary arrests and detention as an ongoing phenomenon" since the invasion.

The report said Saddam's removal was a major contribution to human rights in Iraq. His government "was a brutal, murderous, torturing gang that preyed on its own people."

"Everyone accepts the good intentions of the coalition governments as regards the behavior of their forces in Iraq," Ramcharan said. Iraq could now be "on the road to democracy, the rule of law, and governance that is respectful of human rights."

Osotogary
06-05-04, 01:20 PM
The U.N. has it's collective head up it's a$$.
What about the criminal acts vividly (as seen on TV.) celebrated by the Iragi's or Iraqi sympathizers? I must be deaf, dumb or both because I haven't heard one word from either side (Yes, that means our side as well) about bringing those perpetrators to immediate justice. I'd rest a little easier if justice was dispenced equally ...on all sides.

MillRatUSMC
06-05-04, 02:40 PM
It's time we get out of the UN and kick their a$$e$ out the Nation...
Just read that the Kuwaiti's have fine those convicted of killing one US Marine and wounding several more Marines besides those Marines that died in Beirut Lebanon.
Besides those that have been killed in Iraqi Freedom I and II
What about those Marines civil rights?
Steaming in northwest Indiana...

Semper Fidelis/Semper Fi
Ricardo

HardJedi
06-05-04, 02:57 PM
AHhhh HELL! Ya know, I have to agree with MillRat.
Should those soldiers be punished? Maybe. As WAR CRIMINALS? I REALLY don't think so. Lord, sometimes I think the world was a better place before all the touchy feely people started to be heard, and before information was thrown out so freely.

greybeard
06-05-04, 10:56 PM
The discussion is rather moot.
1. War crimes are to be heard and tried at The Hague's ICC court, the permanent war crimes tribunal, in accordance with the Rome Statute. The USA is NOT a signee of Rome Statute accord any longer, as President Bush withdrew the US from that body in 2002, over concerns for US servicemen attached to UN peace keeping endeavors.
2. The wording of the American Servicemen's Protection Act leaves no doubt what the consequences will be for any world body that tries to hold US servicemen over for trial on war crimes.
Besides 'un-signing' the Rome Statute, the U.S. has since taken several further aggressive steps to protect American citizens from the ICC's jurisdiction. Domestically, members of Congress have inserted a clause in the American Servicemen's Protection Act that would grant the U.S. the right to use force to remove any American accused by, and held in custody of, the ICC. President Bush has signed that ammendment into law. The POTUS, Congress and DoD have made it very clear that force would indeed be swiftly and decisively used, to remove US servicemen from any place they were being held. Many nations have signed on to the ASPA ammendment, fearing they will lose US aid and/or protection otherwise.

In other words, it's all talk-no action, by the UN. Business as usual. I seriously doubt any nation wants to test the resolve of Congress or the current President on this one.

harley
06-09-04, 09:10 PM
I'm trying to find out what the most difficult training schools in the corp are . Example D.I. school, Embassy,Sea School Etc ?

arzach
06-11-04, 09:42 AM
Originally posted by harley
I'm trying to find out what the most difficult training schools in the corp are . Example D.I. school, Embassy,Sea School Etc ?

In keeping with the topic line....AMTRACOLOGY

It's in the 'sink or swim' category.

snipowsky
06-11-04, 12:25 PM
I think we should convict the U.N. of sitting on their asses and doing nothing during the Rwanda and Bosnia crisis! It's ok to commit genocide...but heaven forbid if we beat and humiliate some terrorists!

The United Nations has no backbone!

That should be a war crime...doing nothing to help your fellow man in dire need!

HardJedi
06-11-04, 01:12 PM
I'm with you on that one Snipowsky

DSchmitke
06-11-04, 01:16 PM
The U.N. never had a backbone.

arzach
06-11-04, 02:17 PM
Originally posted by DSchmitke
The U.N. never had a backbone.

they have a backbone, thing is, it's just below their butt cheeks and imbedded

snipowsky
06-11-04, 02:30 PM
lol HELL NO Sgt. arzach! That is so true though!

arzach
06-11-04, 02:38 PM
I put myself in the place of our UN ambassador, Steelers Wheel comes to mind "Clowns to the left of me,
Jokers to the right...here I am stuck in the middle"

never have I seen such a concentration of mindless idiots and criminal misfits.

S/F
Rick

BCompany
06-16-04, 04:03 AM
I don't feel sorry for the Iraqi prisoners. If all they got was embarrased a little by having pictures taken of them naked-they should be happy. Iraqi POW's receive better treatment than our American prisons provide our own people.
Look at what they are doing to our POW's. Hanging our American's off bridges, dragging them through streets while parading and dancing around them. Hacking heads off, constant brutal torture, and who knows what else goes on that we don't hear about. We are the only ones that even follow the Geneva Conventions. Heck I think our people just wanted a little revenge. Does it make it right ...no but, I dont think taking pictures is a war crime......... But thats just me...

snipowsky
06-16-04, 06:52 AM
I'm wondering this. Who are the 11 traitors who voted to try "our own" as war criminals? Just goes to show you will always have that 10%. I think the US government is dealing with them in a just and fair manor.

Personally I think we should be giving these men and women medals for mistreating these Iraqi terrorists/insurgents. They are still alive aren't they? They have their heads still? Nick Berg sure doesn't! Not hanging from bridges in Fallujah after being shot and burned to death are they? So what's the big deal?

arzach
06-16-04, 07:06 AM
Originally posted by snipowsky
I'm wondering this. Who are the 11 traitors who voted to try "our own" as war criminals? Just goes to show you will always have that 10%. I think the US government is dealing with them in a just and fair manor.



No posts from them either...guess it's OK to vote without an opinion. Kinda chuckensh!t if ya ask me.

snipowsky
06-16-04, 07:31 AM
lol No doubt!

Joep
06-16-04, 08:38 AM
The UN is worth nothing, we should get out of the UN. Throw them out of the United States and let them go where ever they want. They are usless, only thing they do is disagree with us every chance they get and especially the one's that have veto power.

cjwright90
06-16-04, 09:04 AM
I am thinking Annan is a Sheet head. So are the rest of the UN brethren. Do the US soldiers lose constitutional rights (double jeopardy protection) because they were on foreign soil? They are getting Courts Martial, with severe pay cuts, big chicken dinners, and all that, not to mention criminal records or the equivilent because the BCD is on thier permenant civilian record as well. They are effed (to use Snip's phrase) already.

grunt69usmcvn
06-18-04, 07:53 PM
All I can say, is War is Hell! Even if our Military mutilate their bodies beyond recognition, what the care? Why should any other nationality be any different from us? We are constantly being scrutinized by all, but at least we take care of our own asses first! Hit us? We double the pleasure of hittin back and havin pleasure in it!! Nuff said!! Semper Fi!!!

mrbsox
06-18-04, 09:58 PM
I'll stand up and say

I VOTED YES !!

At the time this poll first came out, there was a lot of 'slamming' going thru the boards concerning peoples opinion. I felt it best at the time NOT to stir a hornets nest with a reply.

Here's my thought process.

WE ARE AMERICA to the rest of the world.
I remember something about;
"I do solomly swear to uphold and defend the constitution of the United States of America against ALL enemies, foreign and domestic, so help me God"

What they did was WRONG !!
If some other country did it to OUR guys, we'd be hollering loud and long.
Are we ABOVE the very laws we believe in ??
Are we ABOVE the very treatment we are trying to free these people from ??
Are we to enforce 'ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL' only when it is convienent ??

That's why I said YES. :marine:

Terry

arzach
06-18-04, 10:11 PM
Terry, I believe our Military is taking care of the matter according to our UCMJ...not a dictatorship run damn UN.

1. We are NOT above our laws.
2. We are NOT above treating prisoners as we would be treated.
3. We DO believe in 'all men were created equal'.
4. Yes, they were wrong, still are wrong and will be handled
accordingly!

S/F
Rick

MillRatUSMC
06-19-04, 12:34 AM
Now we come to a legal question;
Are terrorists covered by the Geneva Covention?
They represent no government so they have no legal status.
We declared war on terrorism.
But as long as I can remember, we never formally declared a state of war.
That would bring too many things into play, like mobilizing our industries.
Many now are own by gobal interest, will we need their approval to mobilize?
A draft too might come with a formal declaration of war.
So what is the status of all these detainese?
Inquiring minds want to know.
I vote we get out of the UN and sending them packing for parts unknown...

Semper Fidelis/Semper Fi
Ricardo

Arlene Horton
06-20-04, 09:41 PM
Completely agree with above comments. Why should our brave military personnel be punished for doing a little education on how these animals should be grateful to be prisoners of the military personnel being stuck in such a God forsaken piece of ------ country. They sure forgot about "dear Saddam and his filthy sons and their treatment of their own people. Semper Fi all the way!

ugly_angel362
06-28-04, 03:07 PM
[QUOTE]"I don't feel sorry for the Iraqi prisoners. If all they got was embarrased a little by having pictures taken of them naked-they should be happy. Iraqi POW's receive better treatment than our American prisons provide our own people.
Look at what they are doing to our POW's. Hanging our American's off bridges, dragging them through streets while parading and dancing around them. Hacking heads off, constant brutal torture, and who knows what else goes on that we don't hear about. We are the only ones that even follow the Geneva Conventions."BCompany

i will agree with BCompany to a certain extent. we do treat out pow's a lot better that they do. that is because we hold ourselves to a higher standard than we do them. at least i know to myself that i have been taught the proper way to deal with a pow in my possesion. just because they don't have the same standards as we do does not give us the right to humiliate and mistreat them the way some soldiers have. i looked up what war criminal actually means and accoring to my websters dictionary a war criminal is an individual who has committed a war crime and a war crime is Any of various crimes, such as genocide or the mistreatment of prisoners of war, committed during a war and considered in violation of the conventions of warfare. no where was i taught that it was ok to take naked pictures of pows. so yes i believe that we should try our own as war criminals. would we not do the same to them?

ese4mc
06-28-04, 03:44 PM
individuals caught in civilian clothes are guerilla/terrorists if armed,they are not combatants--ergo--no rights--stop taking prisoners---it is better to give than recieve

vfm
06-28-04, 03:54 PM
When the enemy abides by the rules of engagement so should we. When the enemy acts like animals we have to be the meanest mother F***** in the world. Enough Said!!
Semper Fi!!!
vfm

hobbit
07-13-04, 09:24 AM
I still think they put the UN in the wrong country. We should send all the socialist back to Europe where they belong. The *******s never did like us anyway. I think they are still ****ed because our descendents had the balls to get away while they could.
Tell the UN if they don't like U.S. get the hell out. The plane leaves at midnight, be on it!!!

hrscowboy
07-19-04, 03:20 AM
The bottom line gentlemen is that we as United States Marines are to refrain from that kind of Treatment of anyone. Remember what your Drill instructors told you at MCRD you will be professional soldiers. You will not under any circumstances tarnish the reputation of the Marine Corps and that gentleman was to be followed by the letter. When you graduated from MCRD and ITR you where a fighting machine, first to fight and fight to win no holds barred. The bottom line is these people got caught up with playing stupid games and forgot the professional ideas they where taught. If in fact these people did what they said they have done then under the UCMJ they should be be accountable for there actions. as well as the people that harm our soldiers they too should be held accountable. I myself think that we should have not turned saddam back over to his people I myself think we should have turned him over to Hague and let him be tried as a war criminal. So be it if they find him quilty and hang him or shoot him lord knows he needs it but the bottom line is the USA done what was right.