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thedrifter
04-29-04, 09:42 AM
Abuse Of Iraqi POWs By GIs Probed <br />
<br />
April 29, 2004 <br />
<br />
(CBS) Last month, the U.S. Army announced 17 soldiers in Iraq, including a brigadier general, had been removed from duty after charges of...

thedrifter
04-29-04, 09:43 AM
What, if any actions, are being taken against the interrogators? <br />
<br />
&quot;I hope the investigation is including not only the people who committed the crimes, but some of the people that might have...

d c taveapont
04-30-04, 08:37 AM
The DAMN Morons.....And a bad time for the pics to come out.......stupid.

thedrifter
04-30-04, 02:24 PM
US general suspended over abuse <br />
<br />
A US general has been suspended in Iraq over the alleged abuse of prisoners by US troops in jails she ran. <br />
Brigadier General Janice Karpinski is among seven...

bobpage
04-30-04, 02:36 PM
Just one more example of the lack of discipline in the Army. I always said it, it comes from the top.

usmc4669
04-30-04, 04:07 PM
Associated Press <br />
April 30, 2004 <br />
<br />
HAGERSTOWN, Md. - A soldier accused of abusing Iraqi war prisoners wrote that his commanders ignored his requests for rules of conduct and silenced his questions...

yellowwing
04-30-04, 04:31 PM
"he said allegations against Frederick were appropriately investigated." - investigating the allegations by Frederick will be interesting.

SNCO LEADERSHIP Question:
Should have Staff Sgt. Chip Frederick done more? Could he have made his way up to the CG with his concerns?

enviro
04-30-04, 05:03 PM
Other photos can be found here:

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0428-13.htm

arzach
04-30-04, 07:08 PM
The writings were given to the AP by Frederick's uncle, William Lawson, who said the Army has treated his nephew unfairly. Lawson and Frederick's wife, Martha, said Frederick was being made a...

yellowwing
05-01-04, 03:42 AM
It goes toward wrecking the good will that we have built up. The populace that is not taking up arms against our force is angry. Tonight's BBC report showed several Iraqi folks in a peacful market sounding off.

As a SNCO he had to have been supervising some people. He should be accountable for what happened on his watch.

Now we have another Kim Phuc and Saigon Police Chief sensation to deal with.

thedrifter
05-01-04, 10:05 AM
Accused general called scapegoat <br />
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<br />
By Rowan Scarborough <br />
THE WASHINGTON TIMES <br />
<br />
<br />
The woman general who ran the Abu Ghraib prison in post-Saddam Iraq is being made a scapegoat in the Army's...

usmc4669
05-01-04, 10:06 AM
yellowwing


Should have Staff Sgt. Chip Frederick done more? Could he have made his way up to the CG with his concerns?


A soldier accused of abusing Iraqi war prisoners wrote that his commanders ignored his requests for rules of conduct and silenced his questions about harsh, humiliating treatment of inmates.
In a journal he started after military investigators looking into the abuse approached him in January, Army Reserves Staff Sgt. Ivan "Chip" Frederick wrote that Abu Ghraib prison, near Baghdad, was nothing like the Virginia state prison where he worked in civilian life."When I brought this up with the acting BN (battalion) commander, he stated, 'I don't care if he has to sleep standing up.' That's when he told my company commander that he was the BN commander and for me to do as he says," Frederick wrote.



Seen and heard of people being 'railroaded' like this, but tell me how a staff NCO..and a corrections officer in civilian life,

Is Frederick being made a scapegoat for commanders who gave him no guidance on managing hundreds of Iraqis with just a handful of poorly equipped troops?

Staff Sgt. Chip Frederick was a prison guard here in the states, you cannot tell me that he didn't know that what they were doing to these Iraqis prisoners was according to Military regulation in handling of prisoners. He may have kept a manual to cover his a**. Yes he could have went to his senior officer, who was the General who got relieved of her duties. Still he should have had the common sense to not take part in the torture of these prisoners. Now read the article below and tell me why they didn't train our own troops in how to treat Iraqis prisioners?

MPs work to better Iraqi prisons
Submitted by: I Marine Expeditionary Force
Story Identification Number: 200352165730
Story by Army Master Sgt. Robert Cargie

AL-HILLAH, Iraq (May 22, 2003) -- The group entered the prison with authority. Many had been in a building like this before - not as prisoners but as corrections or police officers. Still this prison looked and felt much different from what they were used to.
The members of the 310th Military Police Battalion, an Army Reserve unit from New York City, were there to assess the prison in Al-Hillah. They, along with military police companies from West Virginia and Puerto Rico, are working to re-establish a "criminal internment facility" in southern Iraq and to train prison officials. They are all assigned to the 1st Marine Expeditionary Force's area of operation.
Considering the brutal nature of the prison system prior to Operation Iraqi Freedom, they realize what a difficult task they face.
"Before the war you would always hear about how people were treated in the prisons here -- how they were tortured," said Army Command Sgt. Maj. Timothy Woodcock. "What I see here is an extremely sub-standard facility."
Woodcock has experience in running a prison. For the last 10 years, as a lieutenant in the Connecticut's Department of Corrections, he was responsible for training correction officers. He says changing attitudes and changing the way things were done has to be a "lynchpin" of training the Iraqis.
"I've opened two new [prison] facilities in Connecticut," Woodcock said. "You have to begin with an understanding that fair and equitable treatment of inmates is an essential part of any corrections training program."
Another essential consideration when operating a detention facility is "officer safety", according to Army Sgt. 1st Class Shane Liden, a 310th MP Battalion operations sergeant.
"We are here to show the Iraqi correction officers how to create a safe environment for them and for the prisoners they guard," Liden said. "With a safe environment you don't have to use the threat of brutality to keep people in line. They need to know that when dealing with inmates you can sometimes catch more flies with honey than you can with vinegar."
The prison in Al-Hillah is located in the middle of the city. The whitewashed interior walls have murals and Arabic sayings painted on them. On one of the murals a splash of black paint exists where once the painted likeness of Saddam Hussein looked over the shoulder of guards and prisoners alike.
Bunk beds without mattresses are crowded into the prison's cells. Each room holds about twenty beds in a space as big as many American bedrooms. Newspaper clippings of automobile advertisements are pasted to the walls. That and left over fabric that covers some of the beds are the only indication that at one time someone occupied these filthy rooms.
The facility holds no inmates now. According to the Deputy Warden, Ali Ahim, all the prisoners were released right after combat operations began. He said the released inmates were incarcerated for various reasons, to include assault, theft, robbery and rape.
Ahim showed little emotion when speaking through an interpreter and only answered questions he was asked. A number of individuals described as "former guards" shadowed him and the MP assessment team throughout the tour. It was unclear why so many people were still in an empty prison. That question was never asked.
Army Cpl. Michael Capriola, an MP with the 310th and a Suffolk County, N.Y., police officer, said he hopes Iraqi prison guards could learn a more professional way of dealing with prisoners.
"Ideally we will be able to train guards and bring Iraqi prison standards up to the point where guards can be both humane and effective," Capriola said.
Army Capt. Robert Woodson, a platoon leader for the 157th Military Police Co. of the West Virginia Army National Guard, echoed that sentiment. "We have an opportunity to create a new environment. . .create a new attitude towards corrections and how Iraqi prisoners are treated across this country," Woodson said.
The MPs walked through the prison with solemnity. Woodcock and others were rapidly scribbling notes as they continued. They came to a room that was lit by a high, iron-barred window. The sunlight illuminated a wall etching and various Arabic writings.
"This is where the prisoners were interrogated," Michel Al Mane spoke out loud in the room that was now starting to fill with people. A Kuwaiti volunteer translator, Al Mane was translating what the Iraqi prison officials had told him.
Those words were said again and again as other people entered. The word interrogated was soon replaced with "tortured."
Liden, a narcotics detective for the New York City Police Department, walked out of the room with his eyes looking down.
"We need to come in here and set up a system where everybody gets a fair shake," Liden said with determination. "It would be better for society here as a whole."
When asked how their presence in Iraq would effect the Iraqi people Woodcock became focused.
"The Iraqi people are not used to having a prison that is meant for convicted criminals," Woodcock said. "They are not use to a prison being a place where convicted criminals can serve their time for the crime they committed and then return to society, hopefully a better person."
The team finished the assessment and prepared to leave. They walked through the prison entrance doorway. Like everywhere else in Iraq where troops stop, Iraqis gathered around the military vehicles. Looking at the crowd Woodcock became resolute.
"I know what it takes to train correction officers from start to finish," Woodcock said. "This is going to take a little time. I know it will take longer than we are scheduled to be here. But I hope we can plant a seed that will grow into a strong tree eventually."

MillRatUSMC
05-01-04, 10:59 AM
What in heaven's name is going on; <br />
Frederick also says there were far too few soldiers there for the number of prisoners: ďThere was, when I left, there was over 900. And there was only five...

namgrunt
05-01-04, 11:19 AM
These photos have already made it to Al-Jazeera TV. In other words, the whole doggone Middle East has seen what a few idiots are capable of doing. Unfortunately, the idiots in question are Americans. To compound it further, some of the photos show FEMALE soldiers in the picture. That will inflame the radical extremists to double their efforts.

There is going to be hell to pay by our ground forces, regardless of the outcome of any investigation into this incident. These knuckleheads have just gotten fellow American soldiers and Marines killed before the shots are even fired.

As for the Army SSGT, if he followed what he considered "unlawful orders", and didn't pursue clarification further than an 'acting Bn Cmdr', then he is guilty if he took part. Let the "Chips" fall where they may.

Semper Fi!

Scotty1023
05-01-04, 11:26 AM
This should never have happened!!! These jerks need to be court martialed, sent to Levenworth and we need to show the world that this behavior is dead wrong and we will never accept this. And that so called woman soldier in the photos, what type of woman is this? They all need time and hopefully they will not have this treatment inflicted upon them.

ivalis
05-01-04, 03:48 PM
my one liner

i smell a drumbeat for war crimes trial. uf da

usmc4669
05-01-04, 04:21 PM
my one liner
i smell a drumbeat for war crimes trial. uf da

Hey ivalis it made sense.

By the way here's a picture for you, hope that you like it.

http://politicalhumor.about.com/library/graphics/kerry_munster_separated.jpg

kentmitchell
05-01-04, 04:26 PM
Amazing to me, although it probably should'nt be that they were dumb enough to record that crap with photos.
Kill 'em and forget 'em--after you get the intel--but don't make a record of it. Dumb. Dumb.

greensideout
05-01-04, 05:58 PM
Questions:

How did this happen? It took setting up by someone.

Recorded in pictures? To be used for what?

Timing of the release to the press is uncanny in that it happened at a very critical time of transition of power to the Iraqis.

This all happened a year ago and boom, here it is?

Perhaps there's more to it then a few idiots running amuck.

eddief
05-02-04, 02:48 AM
Leavy it to Army dogs to screw up watching over some Iraqi prisoners.

thedrifter
05-02-04, 08:31 AM
Soldiers Didn't Know Geneva Rules <br />
Associated Press <br />
May 1, 2004 <br />
<br />
<br />
WASHINGTON - The six U.S. soldiers facing courts-martial in connection with mistreatment of detainees at an Iraqi prison did...

SheWolf
05-02-04, 08:58 AM
these "soldiers" may not have had adequate training in the Geneva Convention, but some had civilian training in the prison system and had to know that this kind of treatment was wrong,,, all they have done is worsened the situation for all our troops, for what??? getting their jollies,,,

it makes me sick.....

namgrunt
05-02-04, 09:31 AM
What makes things even worse is the highschool hazing attitude demonstrated by the guards. They are laughing, smiling, and pointing to humiliated Iraqi prisoners' genitals, as if they were lording it over some captured "kids" from a competing sports team. It almost seems like a frat party.

There is a breakdown in discipline and oversight by the trainers for this MP outfit, and by their commander, Gen. Karpinski, who was replaced. These dummies deserve jail time themselves. It will be more difficult get enemy combatants to surrender, when they think they will be subjected to humiliation such as the photos demonstrated. Men will be lost as a result.

That is how I see it.
Semper Fi!

SheWolf
05-02-04, 09:32 AM
Originally posted by namgrunt
What makes things even worse is the highschool hazing attitude demonstrated by the guards. They are laughing, smiling, and pointing to humiliated Iraqi prisoners, as if they were lording it over some captured "kids" from a competing sports team. It almost seems like a frat party.

There is a breakdown in discipline and oversight by the trainers for this MP outfit, and by their commander, Gen. Karpinski, who was replaced. These dummies deserve jail time themselves. It will be more difficult get enemy combatants to surrender, when they think they will be subjected to humiliation such as the photos demonstrated. Men will be lost as a result.

That is how I see it.
Semper Fi!

:D NAMGRUNT AND I AGREE OH MY!!!!!!!! :D :banana:

usmc4669
05-02-04, 01:07 PM
namgrunt: <br />
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As bad as it seems I do not agree with either of you. Jail time for these troops, no way, they didn't ask to be sent over there. Dan Rather is one a**hole for putting this on...

arzach
05-02-04, 04:26 PM
This is ridiculous, are you sayin' there are demo plants in the CIA? JHC, the reservists, and for that matter, no one should have allowed photos to be taken...even IF, it was under the supervision of CIA operatives. Would you have posed for pictures?

This is one big black-eye on our Military and us as a nation. Brig time is demanded; this can not go unpunished.

usmc4669
05-02-04, 06:29 PM
This is ridiculous, are you sayin' there are demo plants in the CIA? JHC, the reservists, and for that matter, no one should have allowed photos to be taken...even IF, it was under the supervision of CIA operatives. Would you have posed for pictures?
This is one big black-eye on our Military and us as a nation. Brig time is demanded; this can not go unpunished.

Maybe I didn't make it clear as to what I meant. They should start at the top with the Staff Officers and our Civilians counter parts before they hang our Junior Officers and Enlisted Men.

ivalis
05-02-04, 06:49 PM
it starts at the top alright. Commandante less than zero. Mr "mission accomplished" said that there wasn't any torture rooms in Iraq anymore. What a laugh.

Wonder where the buck is gonna stop reguarding this last fiasco. I doubt that Rumsfeld will get fired.

The emperor has no clothes!

namgrunt
05-02-04, 07:29 PM
Gunny

If the broadcast has been aired only on US media outlets in this country, I might agree. However, the whole damn world knows of this screwup. We can't put the spilled beer back in the keg.

If there are orders telling the participating soldiers to handle prisoners that way, they will surface during the forthcoming investigation. If there was inadequate training of the guards, that will also come out. The prior "prison guard experience" of one of the NCO's may be more hurtful than helpful here. He should have known better and maintained control over his subordinates. That is why he was an NCO, wasn't it?

Let the investigation go to the highest level necessary, but begin with the perpatrators who had their buddies snap the photos of them in that stupid act. They participated willfully. No one ordered them to stand in the shot, pointing at the dingus of some schmuck enemy prisoner.

Semper Fi!

arzach
05-02-04, 07:32 PM
Originally posted by ivalis
it starts at the top alright. Commandante less than zero. Mr "mission accomplished" said that there wasn't any torture rooms in Iraq anymore. What a laugh.

Wonder where the buck is gonna stop reguarding this last fiasco. I doubt that Rumsfeld will get fired.

The emperor has no clothes!

Well there mr. firsthand knowlege, the abuse that is depicted in the photos does not...constitute 'torture rooms'.

The mission was accomplished..mission was to remove sadman and his regime from power; that WAS done, in case ya hadn't noticed. Seem to remenber Dubya sayin' it was gonna be a long, drawn out war...like none ever seen before...it is that. And by the way ivalis, it's better to get the bad guys over there, than to have to get them here. The more 'foreign' fighters in that theater, the better.

Don't even go there, it ain't about oil in the sense of greed, it is tho, because the oil is essential to our national security. Now, before you bring up Halliburton...slick willie recieved more donations and gave them more contracts than Dubya has...so don't go there either.

ivalis
05-02-04, 07:41 PM
We were so successful that a Repulican Guard general is now running Falujia.

Don't put words in my mouth you ignorant fool.

arzach
05-02-04, 07:46 PM
Originally posted by ivalis
We were so successful that a Repulican Guard general is now running Falujia.

Don't put words in my mouth you ignorant fool.

Start the name callin' badbreath...you can't argue facts so you sling crap....that Republican Guard Gen. is under Marine Corps command to there smooth.

greensideout
05-02-04, 08:36 PM
I think we are all jumping to premature judgements and should wait till some facts come in before we start the trial.

I take and edit a lot of photos. I could make this look like it happened in St. Peters Square. What I'm saying is that we really have nothing to make a judgement on except the pics and words of the press---both leave question.

I have to go with the Gunny in this repect, before we burn the poor dumb followers shown in the pics, let's find out who the catalyst of this event was and how it came about.

GSO

d c taveapont
05-02-04, 08:58 PM
Sayin its going to be a long drawn out war, like none other seen before..... I seem to remember another war that had that same tone..damn i must be slippin....but i'm thinking it was R.V.N....:marine:

arzach
05-02-04, 09:10 PM
Originally posted by d c taveapont
Sayin its going to be a long drawn out war, like none other seen before..... I seem to remember another war that had that same tone..damn i must be slippin....but i'm thinking it was R.V.N....:marine:

No comparison Donnie...RVN had a corrupt government in place, switched hands coup after coup. That war would have been won after Tet '68 if the anti-war activists(fonda,xlinton,kerry,hayden,etc.)hadn't aided the North. No ho chi minh trail....this crap will end, the whole of Iraq isn't in open rebellion...just the radical al-sadrs and al-qaeda fighters.

greensideout
05-02-04, 09:17 PM
arzach, True but, Iraq is just a first step to turn the terror that is worldwide. I don't think that our generation will see the end of this war. I would like to be wrong.

arzach
05-02-04, 09:33 PM
Originally posted by greensideout
arzach, True but, Iraq is just a first step to turn the terror that is worldwide. I don't think that our generation will see the end of this war. I would like to be wrong.

The terrorist operate worldwide now, they are here in our country as we peck on our keyboards. These people(animals suits them better)have to be stopped, we can't just slap their wrists like before. Befriending sadman was a gig that was to aid our recovery of the hostages in Iran in '79, bad move, but the game was played that way then. We have no other choice but to confront this evil now, if anyone knows of a better way to insure the continuation of our Country and way of life, clue me in. I don't want to hear about past mistakes or reasons why these animals hate us; I really don't care if they do or don't. I do know I'm too damn old to learn arabic!

We have our 'hand', now we gotta play it the best way we can.

greensideout
05-02-04, 09:46 PM
I agree, I was just saying that it will take a generation or two to change the mindset of our foe.

namgrunt
05-02-04, 10:34 PM
Drudge has a New York Times article on link, which states that four unidentified mid level interrogators may have been at the bottom of this fiasco. Two are supposed to be U.S. intelligence officers, and the other two are "civilian contractors" serving the same intelligence function. There was an alleged usurpation of the normal chain of command within the MP unit involved, with enlisted personnel following possible illegal orders. It is not clear.

Any way you cut it, we end up on the wrong end of this incident. The Brits have their own problems of a similar nature to deal with. So, put your hipboots on folks, 'cause it's going to get deep.

d c taveapont
05-02-04, 11:09 PM
arzach. i was refering to RVN as in corrupt government, as in IRAQS saddam .....Now don't get me wrong bro but i do think that both governments were corrupt...and in the end i don't think that anything will change. but we'll all have to wait on this one....by the way i have a bro in 2/5 that was there and he'll be HOME this sat the 8th.....The bro is my cousin...you Marines take it easy.....the mouse is out.:marine:

kentmitchell
05-03-04, 10:31 AM
Considering the nature of the abuse, I wonder if the word "probed" isn't unfortunate. Or pretty literal.

kentmitchell
05-03-04, 10:38 AM
Re army S/Sgt Chip Frederick:
He says he didn't have any guidelines. Not much of an excuse to do what he and the others did. They had to have some guidelines on being a human being.
Besides, you can really hammer a guy physically and mentally without that kind of crap.
Anyone who attended the USMC Rite of Passage on Lovely Parris Island knows what I'm talking about.

SheWolf
05-03-04, 11:15 AM
Originally posted by arzach


No comparison Donnie...RVN had a corrupt government in place, switched hands coup after coup. That war would have been won after Tet '68 if the anti-war activists(fonda,xlinton,kerry,hayden,etc.)hadn't aided the North. No ho chi minh trail....this crap will end, the whole of Iraq isn't in open rebellion...just the radical al-sadrs and al-qaeda fighters.


if it was 1968 I don't think you can include Kerry in there as he was in Nam in 68, I think,,,,

Sgt Sostand
05-03-04, 12:26 PM
we for get about the Americans that they Burn and Hang across a Bridge war is hell but some how i dont think that they are tell it all in iraq you dont know who is who just like some other place if you know what i mean

usmc4669
05-03-04, 01:47 PM
The Brit's did it? I looked at the pictures that was posted and for some reason the prisoners looked a little lite skinned to be Iraqis, and the Tee-Shirt he was wearing didn't make sense to me, could these be doctored up pictures, or made to look like prisoners being mistreated?


May 3 2004
PROOF THAT ABUSE PICS WERE REAL
By Paul Byrne And Stephen White
THE two soldiers who disclosed shocking photos of British troops abusing an Iraqi last night rejected claims the shots were fakes.
SHOCKING: The Mirror revelations of abuse and,
right, hooded prisoner with gun pointed at his head
They insisted pictures they gave the Mirror showing a hooded prisoner being urinated on and battered with rifle butts were real.
CLAIM: Floppy hats as worn by this soldier hitting
the helpless prisoner in the groin are rarely,
if ever, used by British troops serving in Iraq
PROOF: Troops wear the same style of hat arriving
in Basra last year. The men in this picture have
no connection with the disclosures of abuse
Referred to as Soldier A and Soldier B, one of the pair said: "This happened, it is not a hoax and the Army knows a lot more has happened." Soldier A added: "I was there, I saw what happened."
The men from the Queen's Lancashire Regiment spoke out after BBC defence correspondent Paul Adams and Tory defence spokesman Nicholas Soames suggested the pictures were fake.
Adams claimed he had been told of inconsistencies in the shots by "sources close to the regiment".
And Soames criticised the Mirror for publishing them when, he said, "there was clearly a question mark over their veracity".
But yesterday an unnamed officer told GMTV that senior ranks had turned a "blind eye" to mistreatment of Iraqi prisoners.
"People were literally getting serious beating or kickings... you're talking broken ribs, punctured lungs sort of thing."
Asked whether incidents such as those depicted in the photographs had occurred, he replied: "Yes, I'm sure it has. I know. Yes. Yes."
And Sky TV defence analyst Francis Tusa insisted there was no evidence to suggest the pictures were fake.
Daily Mirror editor Piers Morgan yesterday defended publication of the photos, which sparked a worldwide outcry, in Saturday's paper.
He said: "There was clearly a small rogue element of soldiers who committed totally unacceptable acts against Iraqi civilians.
"Acts which have made our battle to win the hearts and minds of this country's people so much more difficult.
"The Mirror makes no apology for exposing this outrageous and unlawful behaviour, which has been common knowledge among disgusted British servicemen in Basra for many months.
"The vast majority of our troops in Iraq have done an outstandingly brave job in incredibly difficult circumstances and the Mirror will always support our soldiers unequivocally, even though we opposed the political decision to wage this war."
The two squaddies admit they cannot answer questions regarding minor details in the photos, which were taken months ago.
But here they respond to the allegations they are fake.

CLAIM: The man's T-shirt was too clean and not of a type worn in that part of Iraq.
REALITY: Soldier B: "We saw dozens of Iraqis wearing exactly those T-shirts." Soldier A: "The man was wearing some sort of Arab dress over his T-shirt and it was ripped off during his arrest."
CLAIM: The man's legs are not in a foetal position as they would have been if he had been attacked in a sensitive region.
REALITY: Soldier A: "That's how he was. I can't say why they aren't. His arms were tied behind him."
It appears the victim, who had a sack over his head, would not have been prepared for the blow.
CLAIM: The webbing and pouches worn by the soldier pictured urinating on the victim aren't very full or even well used.
REALITY: Soldier A: "On raids, kit wasn't the issue. We had also returned to our compound, the soldier might have removed stuff."
CLAIM: Rarely did QLR troops wear floppy jungle hats in Iraq. Though all had them, they were encouraged to wear either berets or helmets.
REALITY: Soldier B: "We wore floppy hats all the time. A beret was too hot, helmets cumbersome."
The Mirror has seen pictures of QLR troops, including themselves, in Basra in floppy hats.
CLAIM: No divisional mark is visible below the Union flag on the rifle-butting soldier's left arm. If he was in Iraq, he should have also had a divisional marking, a triangle.
REALITY: Soldier A: "We weren't going around sewing badges on. I might have had one shirt with the correct badges which I'd get out if I was on parade. The others had no badges. Perhaps just a Union flag."
CLAIM: The truck, the soldiers' uniforms and boots, and the Iraqi are too clean.
REALITY: Soldier A: "That's the way it was."
CLAIM: The SA80 in the picture is allegedly a Mark One. All troops in Iraq had Mark IIs. The rifle in the pics has no shoulder strap - unusual for troops in Iraq.
REALITY: Soldier A: "I was carrying an SA80-A2. I think the one in the picture is that model as well. I can't explain why it may not be.
"Some soldiers wore rifle slings, many others didn't.
"Some found that in a situation where you might have to open fire a sling made moving the weapon to the firing position very awkward."
CLAIM: A rifle in the picture was too clean, with no scratches or marks.
REALITY: Soldier A: "We cleaned our rifles all the time. It could have been cleaned that afternoon."
CLAIM: The truck appears to be a Bedford model, rather than a Leyland, which was the type the QLR had in Iraq.
REALITY: Soldier A: "It was a four-ton truck, I'm not sure what make. We always used that sort of truck when we were on raids as did other units. It was standard practice."
CLAIM: The sandbag on the Iraqi's head is too clean and looks almost ironed. Sandbags used as hoods by troops were kept crumpled up in their pockets or pouches for quick use as necessary.
REPLY: Soldier A: "I can't answer that. That was the hood the man had on."
The Mirror has seen another picture of one of the soldiers with another arrested Iraqi - the sandbag appears identical.
CLAIM: The troops' uniforms and equipment are too neat and not dirty.
The Mirror has been shown another picture of an arrest in which the soldiers' uniforms appear exactly the same.
CLAIM: There are no visible bruises or marks on the Iraqi.
REPLY: Soldier A: "I can't explain that."
CLAIM: Boots were not laced in the correct fashion.
REALITY: Soldier A: "I never even noticed that. I think people lace the boots the way they are most comfortable with."
The Mirror has seen archived pictures of Basra soldiers with laces done up in many different ways.

d c taveapont
05-03-04, 02:21 PM
usmc 4669, All that it takes is just one screw up to turn the tide against the U.S. just reading about this and hearing about it on fox news PI$$es me off. i'll be off the I-net for awhile burying my friend and director tomorrow.

arzach
05-03-04, 06:05 PM
Originally posted by SheWolf



if it was 1968 I don't think you can include Kerry in there as he was in Nam in 68, I think,,,,

kerry's included SheWolf...Tet '68 only happened once, the NVA continued recieving help all the way to the end. Remember kerry's testimony in '71...our involvement ended in '73. Another thing you may not be aware of; kerry didna just 'jump' in the Service...he was tryin' the same thing slick-wille did....applied to study in france.

usmc4669
05-03-04, 06:33 PM
kerry's included SheWolf...Tet '68 only happened once, the NVA continued recieving help all the way to the end. Remember kerry's testimony in '71...our involvement ended in '73. Another thing you may not be aware of; kerry didna just 'jump' in the Service...he was tryin' the same thing slick-wille did....applied to study in france.

I'm not a Kerry fan, and I think that Kerry was wrong to join the VVAW. Yes he did help the North Vietnamese. We should focus on this war in Iraq not the one 36 years ago.

arzach
05-03-04, 06:52 PM
Originally posted by usmc4669


I'm not a Kerry fan, and I think that Kerry was wrong to join the VVAW. Yes he did help the North Vietnamese. We should focus on this war in Iraq not the one 36 years ago.

No problem Gunny, just clearin' sumthin' up with SheWolf.

I am focused on this war, not just iraq...the whole war against those who would kill us; kerry becomes relevent in as much as if elected, we'd be in a world of hurt...the more exposure he gits, the less chance he'll make it to the White House.

greensideout
05-03-04, 08:19 PM
Originally posted by usmc4669


We should focus on this war in Iraq not the one 36 years ago.

I thing that is what the leadership is doing. Seems that they didn't do their homework of "the one 36 years ago". The result is that we are making the same mistakes. Here we go again! Have a war that feeds the economy, fight it like the 17th century OR WE COULD USE A FEW SMART BOMBS AND DO THE SAME THING without the battlefield loss of American lives there.

As I said in a post at the begining of the war---The Beat Goes On.

kentmitchell
05-04-04, 10:58 AM
Re Homework of the one 36 years ago:

I don't recall any North Vietnamese or VC flying airplanes into any buildings in the USA.

thedrifter
05-04-04, 12:04 PM
Abusing Iraqi Prisoners: It's Not A Job, It's An Adventure

May 4, 2004

by Fred Reed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Regarding the torture of Iraqi men by the American military as chronicled by the worldís press:

Janis Karpinski, reportedly a general in the American military, presided over the prison where it happened, and therefore over the torture. To her I want to say: Iím proud of you, Janis. As one who served in the armed forces, as one whose father was in the Pacific in World War II, and spent the rest of his career as a mathematician for the Navy, I want to thank you for making your prisoners give each other blow jobs. This is what America stands for, after all: Compulsory blow jobs. Giving sadistic little *****es and sonsof*****es sex toys to torment. Iím proud of you, Janis.

Now, the soldiers who did it apparently were enlisted. What may we deduce from this?

Enlisted men do not undertake systematic complicated degradation and torture of prisoners without the knowledge and approval of their officers. The officers knew. Officers to what level? Officers are college graduates and understand the political implications of such things. A lieutenant is too junior to risk it and in any event couldnít hide it from the captain. Prisons ó Iíve been in a bunch of them ó are intimate places. People know what goes on.

Karpinski, covering her behind (as well she might: this is war-crimes stuff and she could take the fall) says why she had no idea and who would have thought it and anyway the intelligence people were behind it. Sure. I believe she didnít know. Stalin didnít know what was going on either. Naw. In this business weíre all virgins.

But suppose, as Karpinski says, the intelligence agencies were behind it. Then it was deliberate, systematic, and authorized, wasnít it? Not rogue soldiers. American policy. A general as much as says so. Intelligence agencies donít just, oops, torture people systematically. You know, like stepping on the cat. Who could doubt the word of a general?

The pictures, note, are trophy pictures. The torturers are proud of what they are doing. They think itís a hoot. They want to show people back home. (Though perhaps not their mothers.) Note how obedient the Iraqis are. Think about this. One man doesnít give another a blow job for the amusement of Twiggy unless he is terrified of the consequences if he refuses. Is it only psychological torture? In the pictures, yes. Somebody is behind them with whips and pliers. Those men are scared ****less, and they have a reason.

Torture is routine in war and intelligence. We know about assassinations by the CIA and Mossad, donít we? An agency that will kill people wonít torture them? It isnít remotely just the Americans and Israelis. Pick your war and read the history. Itís everybody. If you enjoy gagging, the French in Algeria were particularly good.

Why does it happen? First, because itís practical. Knowledge is power. Knowledge is lives. You capture a guy at the bomb factory. You want to know where the bomb will go off because you know it will kill all sorts of people you donít want killed. He doesnít want to tell you because he hates you. You squeeze it out of him. You do whatever you have to do. You crush joints, fire up the propane torch, chop off fingers an inch at a time and move up the arm. Donít believe me? Pick your war and do some careful reading.

Second, soldiers come to hate the enemy, to regard him as subhuman, especially if he differs from them. When you have seen the remains of a friend who burned to death in an APC hit by Iraqi RPGs, philosophy departs. Our alleged common humanity takes fifth place behind a desire to kill the bastards any way possible. Torture? Why not? Theyíre worse than dogs.

Third, jobs involving torture attract people who like it. Would you crush a manís testicles because the lieutenant ordered you to? Probably not, or not without misgivings. You might understand the reasoning: ďLook, this guy is IRA and he knows where five hundred pounds of Semtex is hidden in downtown London. We have to find out.Ē The arithmetic is hard to argue. And the terr can stop the proceedings simply by talking. You might see no choice.

But you would probably prefer to leave it to someone else, for when you were out of earshot.

So you need specialists. Always there are people around who are comfortable with torture and degradation, who just flat enjoy hurting people. They are called ďsadists.Ē They are useful. Note the smile on the face of the little minx who is making the Iraqi man masturbate for her. She is getting off. Itís fun. Note the expressions of the guys in the pictures. These are special people.

How surprising is any of this? Not very. War brutalizes people. It provides opportunities to people who are already brutal. This is no secret. The various Moslem groups torture prisoners. The Afghans are famous for it. Democracies lie about it, but they do it. Wars do not bring out the Emily Post in us. Torture is what we do.

Morals? Nobody has any. The Iraqi resistance doesnít hesitate to car-bomb targets in downtown Baghdad, killing large numbers of civilians. The US forces donít hesitate to bomb cities, killing large numbers of civilians. I get email from Americans revolted that GIs could engage in torture. ButÖthatís because we think our people should be above such things.

Some wars are necessary. Some aren't. Why are we in Iraq? After WWII, the French occupied Vietnam (again) by force of arms; in 1954, after years of bloody war, they lost at Dien Bien Phu and left. In the late forties, the Jews occupied Palestine by force of arms; after years of bloody war, that one is still undecided. A bit later, the French, having learned nothing, did the same thing in Algeria; they lost again and left again.

Meanwhile the Americans, having learned nothing from all of this, occupied Vietnam by force; after years of bloody etc, they leaped off the top of the Embassy and fled. The Israelis, sigh, occupied southern Lebanon, and Ö.The Russians occupied Afghanistan and after years of bloody etc, got whipped. Is there a pattern here? Or did someone put something in my tequila?

Presumably having noticed none of this, America is occupying both Afghanistan and Iraq. We send our soldiers to preside over torture and humiliation. I doubt it's what they enlisted for.

Fred Reed

http://mensnewsdaily.com/archive/r/reed/2004/reed050404.htm


Ellie

thedrifter
05-04-04, 12:05 PM
Tuesday, May. 4, 2004 10:35 AM EDT <br />
NBC: Worst Abuse at Al Ghraib Done by Iraqi Recruits <br />
<br />
Some of the worst abuse in the Al Ghraib prison scandal was reportedly perpetrated by Iraqi guards...