I'm gonna rant fer a minute....

[wrbones]

Been gettin' ittle things in my email from time to time. Now don't stop just 'cause I'm sayin' this, yer the only folks I get email from! Well, except for the one who's trying to sell me that credit card. Oh, yeah, there's the guy want's me to get rich with a home business!

Anyway, I get some of this judeo-christian stuff now and then. I don't mind it too much, but I been wonderin' about organised religion fer a spell now. Seems there's a couple things they don't preach or preach around when ya look at the Book. I see more true sprituality around here than I ever did in the churches I attended or visited! What? I been in church! Hell, I mighta even preached a sermon in one or two! I quit goin' when I saw that many of those folks are after fame and money! But that ain't really my main point today!

My main point is this. Unity.

I John 3:16,17,18

By this percieve we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us; and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethern.

But whosoever hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?

My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue, but in deed and in truth.


That's a good little book. It says all that needs to be said in my opinion.

Kinda describes Marines don't ya think?


Look at Acts Chapter 2: 41-47

I'll start with verse 44. Too much typin' fer me! LOL.

And all that believed were together, and had all things common:

Look at Acts Chapter 4 verse 32 And the multitude of those that believed were of one heart and of one soul; neither said any of them that any of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common.

Remeber, the cattle on a thousand hilltops are his. His creation, we're just takin care of things for him. What we have, we have through his blessing alone. We didn't do it by our lonesome! I can look up referensefer that, too, but I'm in a bit of a hurry.

Look at the Lords prayer in the Garden of Gethsemane.

John 17...the whole chapter. How many times do you see him saying words such as "That they all may be one" " They are thine." "And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them." Those who believe are one with Christ, therefore they are one with God. "Be ye therefore as I am"

We see other places to dispense with dispensationalism, "For I am the Lord and I change not." " Jesus Christ, the same yesterday, today and forever." and others of like nature.

Another example is that the churches listed in the new testament are listed as "the church in Rome" "he church at Antioch" et al. Look at your local telephone book and see how many churches are listed therein. Think about it.

When you speak to me of Judeo- Christian values or send me such things from the book, if you are doing them, then speak on. If not, then be still. You don't believe.

My position is inarguable. It is one time where I say, with Luther, Here I stand.


I am willing to discuss this openly, if you are willing to discuss this. Personal attacks onlyreveal yourself and your true position in Christ.

Me?Well, it's all me.

I'm in a bit of a hurry tonight, so if My little bit of refernces didn't satisfy you, dropme an emailI'll take some time and lay it all out for ya

[firstsgtmike]

This is a statement that was read over the PA system at the football game at Roane County High School, Kingston, Tennessee, by school Principal, Jody McLoud, on September 1, 2000. I thought it was worth sharing with the world and hope you will forward it to all your friends. It shows clearly just how far this country has gone in the wrong direction.

"It has always been the custom at Roane County High School football games, to say a prayer and play the National Anthem, to honor God and Country.

Due to a recent ruling by the Supreme Court, I am told that saying a Prayer is a violation of Federal Case Law. As I understand the law at this time, I can use this public facility to approve of sexual perversion and call it, "an alternate lifestyle," and if someone is offended, that's OK.

I can use it to condone sexual promiscuity, by dispensing condoms and calling it, "safe sex." If someone is offended, that's OK.

I can even use this public facility, to present the merits of killing an unborn baby, as a "viable means of birth control." If someone is offended, no problem.

I can designate a school day as, "Earth Day" and involve students in activities to worship religiously and praise the goddess, "Mother Earth," and call it ecology."

I can use literature, videos and presentations in the classroom that depict people with strong, traditional Christian convictions as, "simple minded" and "ignorant" and call it, "enlightenment."

However, if anyone uses this facility to honor God, and to ask Him to bless this event with safety and good sportsmanship, then Federal Case Law is violated.

This appears to be inconsistent at best, & at worst, diabolical.
Apparently, we are to be tolerant of everything and anyone, except God & His Commandments.

Nevertheless, as a school principal, I frequently ask staff and
students to abide by rules with which they do not necessarily agree. For me to do otherwise would be inconsistent at best, and at worst, hypocritical. I suffer from that affliction enough unintentionally. I certainly do not need to add an intentional transgression.

For this reason, I shall "Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's," and refrain from praying at this time.

However, if you feel inspired to honor, praise and thank God, and ask Him, in the name of Jesus, to bless this event, please feel free to do so.

As far as I know, that's not against the law----yet."

One by one, the people in the stands bowed their heads, held hands with one another, and began to pray.

They prayed in the stands; they prayed in the team huddles; they prayed at the concession stand; and they prayed in the announcer's box. The only place they didn't pray was in the Supreme Court of the United States of America - the seat of "justice" in the "one nation, under God."

Somehow, Kingston, Tennessee remembered what so many have forotten. We are given the Freedom OF Religion, not the Freedom FROM Religion.

[wrbones]

Good post Marine! Thanks.
That religion stuff is kinda scary! LOL.

God isn't scary unless you don't know a thing about him.

Forget what the preacher says.

Read the book for yourself.


Remember the church in the new testament that was commended for checking what Paul was preachin' against what the Book really said!



If ya didn't get it the first time, read the book again.

Yer oath did mention God somewhere didn't it?

Read the Declaration of Independence again, then take a look at the Constitution.

Then take yer oath in truth and honor, knowing what you have done.

[badbob]

It’s not just a religious testament, it’s the best philosophy for live and living.

Many of the ones who are against public prayer are what you would call Evolutionists.

I’ve sometimes found myself torn between Creationism and Evolutionism; after all, Evolution is easy to explain, there’s data and scientific evidence, and evolution doesn’t require blind faith.

Then one day when a few of my nodes were working overtime, I had a deep thought,

“Maybe GOD created evolution”.

Bob

[firstsgtmike]

I choose NOT to accept unearned pats on the back or kicks in the ass.

My post was not a indication of my relationship with our Creator, but rather an acceptance of other people's right to their own beliefs so long as they do not deny the rights of others.

I have stood, sat, and knelt respectfully silent while those around me performed their ceremonial tributes to a national anthem, a deity, or a tribal totem. My personal beliefs were never at risk, nor were they ever communicated or compromised.

For "badbob" who said that maybe God created evolution, consider this.
The bible says that the last to be created was man. At what point in evolution was man added? Before, during, or after?

For the fanatics, consider this. By definition, there can only be ONE Creator. Therefore, by whatever name he, she, or it, is called, worshiped, followed, or "obeyed", you are all talking about the same entity.

And until someone, in modern times, goes and returns to say "Been there, done that", will we ever know what lies beyond.

Again, for "badbob" the good book, by whatever name it's called, IS the best philosophy for life and living.

Unfortunately, most "good books" are so ambiguous that "anointed" interpretors can point their followers in any direction they choose.

No one has EVER gone to war unless they felt that "god" was on their side.

Wrong forum? Sorry bout that.

Semper Fi

[wrbones]

Ya got thoughts about this topic that are reasoned and thought out, I say go for it!

Most folks are scared of this topic! ie: God and judeo christian religion!

Other folks can't tell you why they believe what they believe or don't believe! Most often you hear "My pastor says.." when you hear anything much at all! Other times all you hear is screaming and yelling about how you're goin' to hell if ya don't believe the same thing the yeller is espousing! LOL. Fellers like that I don't figure have read the Book much!

Didn't mean any offense First Sergeant! I took your post at face value myself.

I need a bigger stick, I think....


...wasn't much stink in this pot! ;)

[virwar]

I'm glad some of you Vets, especially you Vietnam Vets, are writing or typing what you really think and believe. I've found much peace and healing in listening and reading of your experiences in life and in war through poetry, pictures or just plain ole jaw-jacking . So THANK YOU all for passing this wisdom on to the rest of us that are still looking for healing and acceptance. Welcome Home all you Warriors!
I personally was raised in church. I have never had a problem with God being God, Jesus being God's Son who came was born of a virgin, lived on this rock for 33 yrs and was crucified , died and rose again on the third day, ascended into Heaven which allowed His Holy Spirit to come down to Earth on the Day of Pentacost.
My problem with being in church for 20+ yrs is dealing with pastors and elders who don't know what power is or does, or they can't handle power because of irresponsiblity ( mostly irresponsibility in the area of finances and sexual situations ). My testemony as Christian has always been that I've learned way more about God outside of church than I ever did in church. If anything the church has been a major stumbling block. Which if God considers that the church in fact has stumbled me and others, there is a passage of scripture that says that "it's better to tie a stone around one's neck and throw one's self into the ocean than to stumble one of My little ones." I think that was in the sermon on the mount, if I remember correctly Matt 5. I hope God forgives those who have bent the rules so they could run over me, but according the scripture that's what Jesus Himself said. I've come consider pastors in the company of lawyers and politicians. They take the Truth and twist it into whatever they want or need it to be so they can fill pews and keep the offering basket full, or they they tell you what you'd like to hear instead of stating what the Bible says and letting the person decide on what path or course of action they will choose to take. Jesus, Himself, never rammed anything down anyone's throat . He just stated this is who I am, you can believe or not believe. I choose to believe ( hope that's obvious). I also don't like them having the " Who has the biggest Bible contest" and the "Who can biuld the biggest church contest". What a waste in my opinion. If you need the space then build a bigger church , but I don't like to see needless waste of church funds.
I see, in action, the words Honor , Loyalty, Integrity in my fellow Marines and other service members especially those who have been in combat. I do have to agree with the Devil Dog that made the comment about seeing more Christianity on this web page than in church. I thought I was the only one on this planet (or at least in this geographic area) that had that thought. You just brought more peace to this hunting soul.
Thanx. Semper Fi.
Dave

[Sparrowhawk]

Its what he said, and who's going to argue with Him?

My first interest is in 1st century Christianity. That’s where I have my Masters degree on. I have over 1000 books in my Library; most of them are on 1st century Christianity, and early church history. That is what I would love to write about, but know I have to finish the book on my Vietnam experiences first.

You are right about organized religion, it isn’t what it was in the beginning and that is what is so terribly wrong with religion today. No personal experience with a living God is being taught. Because not many have ever spend the time reading His book.

When I was in Vietnam 9 times I know I was saved from certain death, much of that through a lot of intervention from above. So, I know that a personal encounter with a living God is still possible, and his book only helps us understand what its really all about.

The Corps taught us some values. We learned them in Boot Camp, if we didn’t have them before. Some of us learned the true value of life in the muddy rice paddy fields of South East Asia. Many of us there carried bullet stoppers (small pocket size bibles) in our flak jackets, out in the field, but not many of us read them. We just saw life disappear, when that ashen color fell upon a fallen Marine. There some lost their faith while others gained it. It all depended on what we had been taught and what we brought with us into the Corps and into the battlefield.

Unity is certainly there in Christianity, but that is a special unity closer than the Corps and that is found in understanding ones relationship with our creator. It’s that relationship with Him that makes an earthen relationship with other believers possible. It’s that blood that makes a difference. While the Corps helped us understand a different comradeship one that is unique, physical, and emotional. It is not spiritual which is what He means for us to understand and enjoy. That’s what it means to belong to his family.

Like I said before, I feel like I am now on a sabbatical, been that way for two-three years now. I needed a break, too much counseling and helping others that I needed time to relax and spend some time out in the desert. But, that unity is close, ever so close, and it’s possible to share that unity with others here and for that I am thankful.

Now, bones you're beginning to get me to thinking.... perhaps one day I'll share those experiences, which make the Vietnam experiences so meaningful.

I'm not afraid to discuss God, my own relationship with Him and what I have experienced. I just don't share them unless I’m asked and I'll answer questions not from something I've learned in seminary but from being out in the field and experiencing that unity you mention Bones.

[wrbones]

I flap my jaws and you folks all seem to know a lot more than I do! And I know a good bit! LOL.

You, my fellow Marines, are constantly amazing me, and it has been so since the day I hit those yellow footprints!

I started this thread to make a point, stir the pot a bit and see what came up!

You folks took my thoughts and expounded on them!

I'm impressed!

Sparrowhawk, I'd be real interested in that book. Take yer time and get rested up. I know how service to others can wear ya out after a few years.

VirWar, it's only a thing. Marine. It's my pleasure to be of some little service. Welcome Home Marine!

[Sparrowhawk]

but it all depends upon where one got his book learning from.

Marines for the most part I have found are believer's and attend Chrsitian services.

They are unlike those Navy, Army and Air force dudes...LOL


http://images.chron.com/content/chronicle/comics/archive/2002/9/17/Preteena.635.g.gif

[virwar]

Thanx Bones OOH-RAH!! You know, the Word of God says when two or more are gathered in His name, there shall He be also. I'm glad you started this rant Bones. And I'm glad that these other Marines have chimed in with their comments and views. It's because of Brothers and Sisters like you that give a me glimmer of hope and that extra little something to keep going. I've been reading the Bible most of my conscious life. My Mom made sure I was not just reading the Word, but doing it also. The difference between me and my Mom was and still is, my Mom doesn't mind people screwing up on purpose and then following their preachings anyway, they say the right thing, nevermind what they are doing. I have always had the opposite view. I see leadership by example. Jesus said many times, sometimes in word, but most of the time in deed. "Follow me", "do as I do", I saw that then, I still see it today, clear as the finest crystal. Human beings are going to screw up, that's why Jesus shed His blood. My problem lies where I see a pastor knowingly, selfishly, greedily milking Christians of every ounce of Grace possible. Then the church is suppose to forgive and sit down and shut up. My thought has always been to forgive, yes, that is true and right, but there is another word that you hear in church but don't see any action on. That word is repentance ( to stop doing that unrighteous deed and bring your action into one that lines up with the Word of God - Does the word integrity sound familiar ) How many times and how long can elders knowly defend a pastor in adultry? How many times in a service is too many offering collections? Just so our pastor can have a bigger meeting place than that other pastor down the street. As one of my Gunny's put it so eloquently " ignorance WILL get you killed in combat." The Bible says " My people will perish because of lack of knowledge." People forced Jesus to the edges of cliffs and forced Him onto boats simply because they wanted to hear what He had to say. They didn't give a hoot about wearing their nicest threads or about the temperature of the room or that it was too hot out here. They had people tearing open roofs to get a sick family members close enough to recieve healing and forgiveness from Jesus. Like I said in my last post, I learned alot more about God, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit outside of church than I ever did in church. In the Corps if you had one drop of water in your canteen and your buddy was completely out , you would split that last drop of water with your buddy and vice versa. In church, if somebody needed a ride, that person would just get shuffled along by all the snooties with Texas sized Cadillacs and Texas sized Bibles. ( NO offense intended to Texas, Caddies or big Bibles) Oh, but they love their Jesus. The Bible says you will know His children by there fruits. " I was in jail and you came to visit Me..." ring a bell? The Bible also says that people will know He is God just by creation. I personally have found that to be true by doing something as simple as watching the sun set over a lake or riding a motorcycle down every backroad I can find. The sights, the smells, that really quiet peace that comes over me. The things you see under the water in SCUBA gear is amazing. I don't know how some of these scientist can say there is no God!?! As far as prayer, I don't care how staunch an atheist, put his ass in a combat zone or throw his ass out of an airplane- he'll pray. Well anyway, now I'm rambling, so if anyone wants to take off with any of that, feel free. Point-being is, I get in those real life situations and find God and experience his presence in those circumstances. When I get out them I see God's footprint or when the motorcycle ride is over I feel at peace with God, when my computer says my dive time is up, I'm glad that I got to experince a tiny section of God's great creation. When my flight instructor says it's time to do a full stop landing or my altimeter reads 5' and it's time to pull the toggles, I feel at peace. When the church service ends, many times I feel slimy, bs'd, and a few times I felt raped. Oh well, God is still on the throne. Remember to praise Him or as He says the rocks will!!! Semper Fi all!!! Dave out.:square:

[wrbones]

Kinda what I was gettin' at!

We can all tell horror stories of time in church. My point is to bring it out and look at it.

I've been kicked out or"forced out" of every church I've attended but one. I left that one for they weren't doing.

One other thing the Boss said was (check the Book opn this one, I don't think I have it right) "be ye therefore as I am" the works come outta the heart. It is a matter of being. Of whp you are. Being dunked doesn't make you born again. It's what's in yer heart! How you treat others. Don't mean yer not gonna screw up, just that you mean it. Yer life is different.

Church isn't a building. There is no unity or heart in buildings.

Church isn't a "denomination" there is no unity or heart in them. They are man's creations.

What you are is reflected from yer heart, You are revealed by it. Wholly.

This is why I do my best to be transparent. It's all being revealed anyway by what I say or do. Others preach transparency then hide behind everything they can think of.

Marines understand transparency. Why we're so hard to fool! Ya either carry the load or ya don't. Ya care for your people or ya don't Ya help your Brothers or ya don't. Ya walk it, people know soon enough.

Of course....I'm still workin' on all this myself! LOL;)

[badbob]

I too have shunned organized religion for many years now, for many of the reasons already stated here by Bones and Virwar.

I see too much self-promotion and genuine contradictions in the actions of many who claim to be good followers.

I attended a Wadding this past Saturday evening. The Pastor showed up with his wife for the reception, by late evening he was hitting on one of the single gals in the wedding party.

I mentioned the Good Book and Evolutionism in an earlier post, and FirstSgtMike's response has set me to thinking.

Been hard at now for two days, had several conversations with close friends, some outwardly religious and some not. And as always, when you seriously discuss religion, you almost always go away with more questions than you had before the discussion.

I see the Bible as a philosophy, an accumulation of stories; some embellished and some not.

Having spent a good deal of time in the country side of Vietnam, living right alongside a culture that was 300 years behind the one I had left behind, I gained a respect for the Buddhists, a religion that I studied later in life. I found Buddhism to be simpler but much more philosophical than Christianity. I also read the Koran some 30 years ago, (it was very different from the one circulating in the Middle East today), but closer to Christianity than I had previously imagined.

It seems to me that the under developed cultures have a better understanding of their religion than the more advanced cultures, but the one common element is that most all believe in some form of God.

In our culture the Church use to be at the center of the community, a place where the folks would meet once a week and share their experiences with their neighbors. Help and be helped by their neighbors. There was a time when going to church was an all afternoon affair, first a short service and than a large social gathering sharing food and emotional support. Barn raisings were always organized by the Pastor.

Unfortunately today, people have changed and so has the roll the church plays in their lives. Now, most folks only go to church for Funerals and weddings.

The problem is evolution. In the west we have evolved to a society that feels it either doesn’t need the church or just doesn’t have the time. Television evangelists get rich, some go to jail. Catholic Priests rape young boys, it’s hard to have faith in a system that appears to be breaking down.

As for prayer in the Classroom, how about the Ten Commandments, what’s to question, what part of the Ten Commandments violates personal faith. I think every school kid should be required to recite the Ten Commandments every morning before classes start.

In Nam I practiced my own form of religion, as many of us did. Mine was inward and very basic. I never once asked God to bring me home alive, I only asked for the strength to get through the next day.

It was at night after being relieved from watch and drifting off to sleep, that I felt the closest to God, it was at these times that I would ask for strength. I always awoke with a feeling of refresh, newfound strength and a conviction for living that would dominate my consciousness until I again found sleep.

Ever since Nam, I have kept my religious practices very private. My Vietnam experienced gave me spiritual strength I never new I possessed; I’ve just never felt the need for a Pastor’s guidance.

My Mother use to always say “God Only Helps Those Who Help Themselves” This is the basis of by faith.

Semper Fi,
Bob

[firstsgtmike]

Originally posted by badbob
it’s hard to have faith in a system that appears to be breaking down.



The "system" is man's creation, NOT God's.

You can't deny the existence of transportation just because your car won't start and your bicycle has a flat tire.

Semper Fi

[badbob]

It is Man's system and Man is responsible for all of its short comings.

That's why I've never been much for organized religion.

I do not believe that you need to attend Church to be with God. I pretty much proved that to myself in Nam.


Semper Fi,
Bob

[Barndog]

Be careful and wary, but find your gratitude in the places which are many and bountiful. They are simple and many are right before your eyes.
All you have to do is look beyond the shortcomings that man has given you to work with.
The forest might be hard to view into at first, but as you look into it, the view gets clearer and clearer......

Might be some take-offs of some other more popular parables, but it's worked for me for quite some time.

Semper FI

Barndog

[firstsgtmike]

I suffer from the guilt of not forwarding 50 billion ****ing chain letters sent to me by people who actually believe that if you send them on, a poor 6-year-old girl in Arkansas with a breast on her forehead will be able to raise enough money to have it removed before her redneck parents sell her to a traveling freak show.

Do you honestly believe that Bill Gates is going to give you, and everyone to whom you send "his" email, $1000?

How stupid are we?

"Ooooh, looky here! If I scroll down this page and make a wish, I'll get laid by a model I just happen to run into the next day!" What a bunch of bull****.

Maybe the evil chain letter leprechauns will come into my house and sodomize me in my sleep for not continuing a chain letter that was started by Peter in 5 AD and brought to this country by midget pilgrims on the Mayflower.

**** them.

If you're going to forward something, at least send me something mildly amusing. I've seen all the "send this to 10 of your closest friends, and this poor, wretched excuse for a human being will somehow receive a nickel from some omniscient being" forwards about 90 times.

I don't ****ing care.

Show a little intelligence and think about what you're actually
contributing to by sending out these forwards. Chances are, it's our own unpopularity.

The point being? If you get some chain letter that's threatening to leave you shagless or luckless for the rest of your life, delete it. If it's funny, send it on.

Don't **** people off by making them feel guilty about a leper in Botswana with no teeth who has been tied to the ass of a dead elephant for 27 years and whose only salvation is the 5 cents per letter he'll receive if you forward this email.

Now forward this to everyone you know.

Otherwise, tomorrow morning your underwear will turn carnivorous and will consume your genitals.

Semper Fi

[USMC0311]

I'm sure you ain't the only one Top. I agree. Thanks for stating the sentiments realistically.
Semper Fi, Marine

[badbob]

And it was from another Marine no less.

was a major insult to my intelligence.

I couldn't have said it better Top.

Semper Fi,
Bob Neener

[Barrio_rat]

Originally posted by firstsgtmike
Now forward this to everyone you know.

Otherwise, tomorrow morning your underwear will turn carnivorous and will consume your genitals.

Don't laugh. I've had underwear like that! LOL

BTW, well stated!

Semper Fi

[firstsgtmike]

Bump!

This post, and its threads are worth reading, or rereading.

Don't take MY word for it. Check it out for yourself.

Start at the beginning on page 1, and read down.

This suggestion comes with a money back guarantee.

[greybeard]

Originally posted by firstsgtmike
I choose NOT to accept unearned pats on the back or kicks in the ass.

Unfortunately, most "good books" are so ambiguous that "anointed" interpretors can point their followers in any direction they choose.

No one has EVER gone to war unless they felt that "god" was on their side.

Wrong forum? Sorry bout that.

Semper Fi
Good points, but every war I've ever researched was started in fact, for control of land mass or resources. They may have been called for in the name of religion, since that was the eaiest way to gain support of the populace, (needed for enlistment purposes), but the actual reason behind the start of hostilities has always been greed & power, with a relatively recent spat of pre-emptive incursions to halt or discourage the use of war to obtain resources at a weaker nation's expense.

[Roberto T. Cast]

You Marines all make sense. When I and my 6 brothers and 1 sister went to church, we went thru all the rituals. After Nam, I quit going to church because I saw where the church was headed. The church changes with the changing times. That's when I made my mind up that if I was still going to believe in GOD, that I was going to quit going to church and I would have a straight line and communicate with GOD. That what I do. Every morning I say good morning to GOD, my Dad, my Army brother and my Marine brother. All decease. I stop going to church about ten years ago. I believe in GOD but I communicate with GOD privately.

What gets me the most angry is at funeral, wedding or some festive occassion. You run across this guys and immediately they start preaching to you about GOD. I shut them up and get to point about what I think they do.

What you all Marines are saying is all true. Nowadays, some preachers, pastors or whatever, do not practice what they preach sometimes. Its all about politics, power and money.

I better stop right now before I go on and on. I think you get my drift. If not, let me know.

[Sparrowhawk]

Originally posted by greybeard

Good points, but every war I've ever researched was started in fact, for control of land mass or resources. They may have been called for in the name of religion, since that was the eaiest way to gain support of the populace, (needed for enlistment purposes), but the actual reason behind the start of hostilities has always been greed & power, with a relatively recent spat of pre-emptive incursions to halt or discourage the use of war to obtain resources at a weaker nation's expense.


A weaker nation, or a nation ruled by evil?

How soon we forget.

Iraq has paid a price for her wickedness, for killing hundreds of thousands of innocent people. If we had known what we know now, of that nations wickedness, and not done anything we would have been guilty of those crimes for failing to do what we know is right. That’s why we have a Marine Corps.

From the Halls of Montezuma…
First to fight for right and freedom
And to keep our honor clean;
…We have fought in every clime and place
Where we could take a gun.
…
In many a strife we've fought for life
And never lost our nerve.
If the Army and the Navy
Ever look on Heaven's scenes,
They will find the streets are guarded
By United States Marines.

This time the avenging sword was drawn by the US. Drawn against a religious belief that is based on death and destruction of the poor and innocent. That was enough to go to war against that nation.

It was when the enemy burned and slaughtered children, killed old men and women in Vietnam that made my blood boil in war, and caused my heart to weep.

It was then, I knew God at my side when I pulled the trigger. I felt God's vengeance, not mine. Maybe I was wrong, but I have never regretted what I did or who I killed in war.

One day I'll stand by God's side and He'll show me his battle scars. Wounds, He received because of evil’s presence in the hearts of those that serve their own selfish desires. I know that evil is present where He is not honored in the hearts and souls of men.

In battle, I know I did what was right and that He was there at my side at that time, I may have shot them, but He the giver of life took their lives.

[Sparrowhawk]

We forget one of the most important lessons that came out of the garden.

Before the fall, Adam and Eve did not know there was a difference between good and evil. They were naked and they were innocent.

In the middle of the garden were the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Gen 2:9 (from New International Version)

When Adam & Eve ate of the tree of knowledge, they came to "know," both "Good & Evil."

The word in Hebrew for knowledge is yada` (yaw-dah'); a primitive root; to know (properly, to ascertain by seeing); used in a great variety of senses, figuratively, literally, euphemistically and inferentially (including observation, care, recognition; and causatively, instruction, designation, punishment, etc.)

It is the same word God used when He said, that Adam knew Eve and they had a son. It means to intimately know the other person.

God wants us to "know Him, to Yada' him. Know Him without reservations, without hang-up or religious pretends, to be open and honest with him, upright and without guilt or shame, without secrets. To come to him and get to know Him.

The word when used in regards to a person, or to God is to know them as we are known.

In regards to good and evil, we ought to take the time to know, examine both Good and evil when we make our choices...

This should get us to thinking...

Often we act without thinking, we do without taking into account what our actions will produce. "Good or Evil."

Besides that I think, Eve was a redhead!

http://www.artmagick.com/images/paintingsJune/levy/levy3.jpg

[Roberto T. Cast]

Originally posted by Sparrowhawk
We forget one of the most important lessons that came out of the garden.

Before the fall, Adam and Eve did not know there was a difference between good and evil. They were naked and they were innocent.

***My Question: If Adam and Eve did not know there was a difference between good and evil, Why did GOD let them know otherwise? What is the reason behind it?
************************************************** ************************************************** ****
In the middle of the garden were the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Gen 2:9 (from New International Version)
************************************************** ************************************************** ****

When Adam & Eve ate of the tree of knowledge, they came to "know," both "Good & Evil."

***My question: If they knew only goodness, why did GOD let them know about good and evil? This world would not be in the mess it is in now.
**************************************************
The word in Hebrew for knowledge is yada` (yaw-dah'); a primitive root; to know (properly, to ascertain by seeing); used in a great variety of senses, figuratively, literally, euphemistically and inferentially (including observation, care, recognition; and causatively, instruction, designation, punishment, etc.)

It is the same word God used when He said, that Adam knew Eve and they had a son. It means to intimately know the other person.
************************************************** ************************************************** ****

God wants us to "know Him, to Yada' him. Know Him without reservations, without hang-up or religious pretends, to be open and honest with him, upright and without guilt or shame, without secrets. To come to him and get to know Him.

The word when used in regards to a person, or to God is to know them as we are known.

***My Question: Is this your answer to my question? If it is, I have some questions for you.
************************************************** ************************************************** ****
In regards to good and evil, we ought to take the time to know, examine both Good and evil when we make our choices...

***My Question: If the pandora box was not open, we would have this problem. What was GOD purpose in opening the pandora box?
************************************************** ************************************************** ****

This should get us to thinking...

Often we act without thinking, we do without taking into account what our actions will produce. "Good or Evil."

***My Question: We wouldn't have this problem is the pandora box would have remain close.
************************************************** ************************************************** ****

Besides that I think, Eve was a redhead!

**************(Redheads women are very hard to live with.)
http://www.artmagick.com/images/paintingsJune/levy/levy3.jpg
************************************************** *

Sparrowhawk: I sound like an athiest, but I am not. I believe in GOD. It just that I can not find an answer that will satisfy me. If everything was good, why did GOD spoil it? I guess, then the planet EARTH would not exist, but it could have been another planet beside earth. So you see, its an never ending question.

[Sparrowhawk]

Heck, I'm always questioning Him about all He does, or doesn't do.

But you got me to thinking, and I'll work on it tonight and share my thoughts in tomorrow's message to the congregation.

Don't know yet, how it'll turn out, but you got me to thinking...

And I'll post what comes out, if anything.....

Of course we might need for Drifter to put on his Sunday-go-to-meeting clothes, before he reads what I post...LOL


I agree with you, its a personal thing with God. Everyday and every night I thank Him for another Day.

"Just, you and Me, Right, Lord," was a saying we had in Nam. It remains the same today.

In the evening I thank him for the day and go to sleep at peace with Him and with what I have accomplished.

If I've been doing what I shouldn't been doing then I set things right between us, knowing i might not wake up with the morning sun.

Then the first thing in my mouth in the morning, is Good Morning, Lord, thank you for another day, "What are you gona get me into today? "

He seems to plan things according to what He wants, I gave up a long time ago trying to argue with Him as He has a way of gettiing His way, anyways... LOL

I do know He has a sense of humor, and gosh darn the stuff He pulls no one else could dream them up... But He has always been there at my side....

How, well I know that...

[thedrifter]

Cook.......

It great to see you are relaxing......

Well I see you have your trademark.....going for the new folks to see ;) ......and Yes.....I do have my Sunday go meeting clothes on....LOL.....

Sempers.

Roger
:marine:

[greybeard]

Evidently God considered what happens in this world and the opening of the Pandora's Box to be insignificant in the larger scheme of what is to come after this world. If you can't recognize evil-you can't recognize good. God did create man in his own image, but he did not create them in his perfection. Maybe he had a sense of humor?

[virwar]

I'm glad this thread got bumped. I often think of all that's been said on it. You Marines are my Brothers in Christ, and it's a great comfort to me, even though there aren't a great number of exchanges, but the Quality of the exchanges is very gratifying and satisfying to me. I'm glad Roberto and Saprrowhawk brought up the fact they they talk to God when they wake up and go to sleep. That's all it took to convince this Marine to do the same. I took me most of 32 years to figure out there IS a deference between God and religion and church. Once I figured that out I quit the church stuff and the religious stuff and just quietly noticed the "small" blessings in life. I'd drive to work and think " God, that's a beautiful sky you painted this morning" or " Thank God it's not raining cats-n-dogs every day", but somewhere in the mist of trying to sort out the God/religion/church situation I just quit trying to talk to God. I'd acknowledge Him and His presence when I recognized Him, but I wouldn't just acknowledge Him just to do it. I'm going to start tonight just because it's there right thing to do. The Bible says "acknowledge Him in all things". I've failed to do that for awhile now.
As far as things happening or not happening, the Bible says "God's plan will not be thwarted" but it also says that God gave man free will "to populate and subdue the Earth (to bring it into submission)". The ultimate goal is going to happen, no questions asked (God's plan) and the finer details are left to us. In other words, there are "birth pangs" (wars and rumors of war, famine, pestilence, earthquakes) as described in the book of Revelation, there will be a seven year tribulation, there is a paradise (heaven) and there is a lake of fire (hell) . Those things Will happen, but whether you decide to buy a Ferrari or '36 Ford pick-up, ( I'd choose both, by the way ), or whether you're a jeans and t-shirt person or suit and tie person that's up to you. Just my humble thoughts and opinions. Thanx for bumping this 1st Sgt. God bless you all and Semper Fi Dave

[virwar]

... whether I should start a new thread for this scenario or just make this an extention of the current conversation. This happened about a year and a half ago and I'm NOT too proud of it, but I felt I had to make a stand for my Combat Brothers and Sisters.

First I have to Thank and welcome home all the Nam Vets. I have to thank you for your service to this country and I have to thank those who found it in their heart to write down their experiences. I've found Great healing and comfort from reading your stories. I also have to say that I have a Great Mom, she did a good job raising my sister and I, but she and I have never seen the world from the same angle. She is the type who believes that if it's not in the Bible then it must not be true and is of no interest to her. That being said this situation took place.

I had been reading a bunch of (auto)biographies about Marines, Navy SEALs and Special Forces soldiers in Vietnam. It was of interest to me and allowed healing to take place after Desert Storm. ( I was a Marine Reservist called to active duty for Desert Storm ) Well the books were starting get stacked up, the front covers were maybe a litle intimidating to a woman who knows nothing but church life. I just shrugged off her comments that I shouldn't be reading "that kind of stuff" for a while. I answered with "these people understand me and I understand them" type of answers. It never really bothered me too much, although it did rattle "something" way deep inside. I took it pretty well until one day we were riding in the car ( I was driving ) and she began "explaining" ( read- nagging the fuk outta me ) about why I shouldn't be reading those books, and she said that "those men are Evil":mad: That's when volcano erupted and I informed her that I am one those "those men". I was so angry that I growled at her in a worse way than a Drill Instructor would growl at a recruit. I let her know that we (the US military from the Revolutionary War to Iraqi Freedom )were sent to do a very dirty job and we did so under orders from the President and the backing of the people of the USA. I then growled a list of experiences off and asked her if she wanted to try to live with this s hit. About this time the look in her eyes changed noticably from just the normal "let him blow off steam" look to one of pure fear. She saw the rage coming out and she knew she pressed the wrong friggin button. And I think she understood that I AM one of "those men". I informed her that "men like us" didn't do the things we did because we wanted to, or because we felt like it, or because it was cool, or fun. WE did it because it HAD to be done. I let her know that we are NOT evil. We were told to do a job and we did it. That's it. Have we seen Hell, yes. Are we evil, FUK NO!!!

After a Looooong ride on the motorcycle and a couple days of cooling off, she asked forgiveness and so did I. Up until then I'd gone for over ten years of trying "act" like the good little Christian boy that she knew, but my Mom has never looked at, or treated me quite the same since that day in the car. She has seen the "monster" now. She knows that I don't just criticize to do so, but because I see BS and I call it BS. The good little Christian boy is gone forever. I question everything especially BS.

I don't know why this scenario has been on my mind for the last two days. It's water under the bridge. Has anybody else had such acute experiences with family members and/or Christians?

Maybe this will stir the conversation a little more...


Semper Fi Dave:qmark: