PDA

View Full Version : Proposed rifle marksmanship program didn’t pass muster with the top Marine


thedrifter
03-05-04, 07:23 PM
Issue Date: March 08, 2004

Range change shot down
Proposed rifle marksmanship program didn’t pass muster with the top Marine

By Gordon Lubold
Times staff writer

Blame it on the high op tempo, or say it simply was a bad idea. Regardless, the commandant put on hold a new rifle marksmanship program intended to reinforce shooting skills among Marines.
Training Command officials at Quantico, Va., announced Feb. 20 that they will not implement a revamped annual requalification program, which eliminated the field-firing portion and represented a significant departure in the way Marines requalify on the range.

The heart of the range change, which was to take effect last October, was a return to the old days of rifle “requal,” when recruits and fleet Marines shot the same course of fire. The move was seen as a way to reinforce basic marksmanship skills in a shorter, more standardized program.

But after meeting with his top generals, Commandant Gen. Mike Hagee decided against implementing the program. Hagee and other generals like the current system, in which recruits shoot an entry-level program and Marines in the fleet fire a “sustainment” course.

Adopting the new program might have represented an ill-advised break in tradition, said Col. Gordon “Buck” Bourgeois, commanding officer of Weapons Training Battalion at Quantico. The deployment of more than 25,000 Marines to Iraq this spring also makes such a change difficult, he said.

“We don’t make changes to this training without a deliberative approach,” said Bourgeois, who was enthusiastic about the new marksmanship program when it was first announced last summer. By not making the change now, “we’re reflecting the more deliberative approach here.”

Bourgeois said because senior leaders did not like the idea of returning to one course of fire for all Marines, then the rest of the program changes seemed to not make sense, either. Too many elements of the marksmanship program are interrelated, and improving one part of the program would mean sacrificing others, he said.

“Because that single course of fire was not approved by the [general officers], that prompted a ‘let’s take a look at everything again,’” he said.

Adding to the complication is an ongoing discussion about whether the infantryman’s rifle should be equipped with an optical scope. Marines who used the Advanced Combat Optical Gunsight during the major combat phase of Operation Iraqi Freedom last spring were enthusiastic about the advantages it offers. That, too, could have had an impact on the program, because Marines likely would need to train both with iron sights and the optic.

“If we’re going to permanently go to an optic sight, that would be something to consider,” he said.

Bourgeois didn’t rule out the possibility of future changes to the marksmanship program, but hinted that changes wouldn’t happen soon, given the current pace of operations.

Shorter, better?

The push to reinvigorate marksmanship, the most basic of Marine skills, began under former Commandant Gen. James Jones.

There were rumblings at the time from fleet Marines that the Corps’ traditional emphasis on marksmanship skills was waning. Training officials were charged with finding a way to reverse that trend and met in November 2002 for a marksmanship conference at Quantico. Representatives from major commands, bases and stations hashed out the new qualification package and sent it up the chain of command.

The new program seemed like it would do the trick.

It standardized prefiring training by shifting the responsibility from unit commanders to range coaches and condensed that coursework to one day. To accommodate this change and others, the field-firing portion was dropped from the requalification program. That course is conducted on the fifth day of qualification week. It involves firing at moving targets, firing while wearing gas masks and the like, and was to be conducted at the unit level apart from the requal program.

Though some Marines believe field firing is a waste of time because it isn’t scored, other Marines see it as a way to reinforce rifleman skills. By giving the responsibility for this training to the unit, it was in effect relegating it to a lower status, some said.

The new training package would have been three days shorter than the current course, a shorter schedule would have allowed Marines to get off the range and back to their jobs more quickly. Some commanders have expressed concern that while marksmanship is important to every Marine and some enjoy the break from the work routine, a full eight days is too much time away.

More coaches

In the end, only one element of the new program will be implemented, but even that has been tweaked.

Given long-standing complaints from commanders about the lack of range coaches, training officials planned to create a military occupational specialty, basic known distance coach (8529). Now, the only Marines who teach on the rifle or pistol ranges are marksmanship coaches (8530), marksmanship instructors (8531) and small-arms weapons instructors (8532).

Officials hoped to improve the shooter-to-coach ratio on the range and curb the standard practice of forcing Marines out of their jobs to pull range-coach duty.

But new coaches instead will be made by creating a one-week certification program under which Marines will receive training to instruct in specific range areas. Units will train their own coaches, allowing them to deepen their pool of Marines who are able to instruct during annual requalification.


http://www.marinetimes.com/story.php?f=0-MARINEPAPER-2676170.php


Sempers,

Roger
:marine:

kentmitchell
03-15-04, 07:28 PM
Let me ask the generals one question: What do grunts do when the enemy is coming at them? Shoot.
What is it they are doing that is so important that they can't take eight days to polish their main skill, their rock-bottom reason for being Marines.
Unless the deep-thinkers just consider them trigger-pullers and not fighters.

HardJedi
03-15-04, 09:24 PM
I don't get it. Really I don't I re-qualed every year on the same course we used in boot, and I served as an 0311. what was WRONG with the way things were?

Chieftain
03-16-04, 09:12 PM
When the Corps gives up on it's emphasis on hitting the target with the rifle, the Corps will have given up one of it's reasons to be.

We are the premier shooting military organization on earth.

Any method that takes away from that is wrong, regardless of the rationalization.

Any method that improves or adds to it should be supported.

MillRatUSMC
03-16-04, 10:29 PM
I'm looking at this from a Primary Markmanship Instructor (PMI) point of view, even if it is outdated.
In boot camp they fire the entry-level program, Known Distant (KD) course for qualification.
All the other shooting improves what knowledge they have gained.

The Marines in the fleet fire a “sustainment” course.
This course of fire most resembles the shooting in combat.
Years back everybody shot the Known Distant (KD) course.
Than the mind set went that all shooting was done within 300 yards.
Now it less than that in urban warfare.
My thoughts are that an enemy knows that mind set and they adjust to that.
But if we were to do as the Marines of WW I did, they took the enemy underfire at about 800 yards.
It demoralized the foes that they were facing.
In Afghanistan, there a need for a weapon that will reach out beyond 300 yards possibly out to 800 yards or more.
It must be more than just snipers taking the enemy underfire beyond 300 to 500 yards out.
That would change the mind set of some.
IMHO
There also the thought going through my mind;
"If it isn't broke, don't fix it".
Than this comes to mind;
Commandant Gen. James Jones saw a need to reinvigorate marksmanship, the most basic of Marine skills.
Because he must have seen the same mind set, that I'm talking about.
Than this comes to mind;
The bitter lesson that was given the Army, when PFC Jessica Lynch unit was ambushed, marksmanship might have saved the day, but many were not able to shoot back.

Marines have always be noted for their ability to shoot and hit the target.

All these are from an outdated Primary Markmanship Instructor (PMI), who can still hit what he is aiming at.

"A man or woman is measured
by the footprint,
he or she leaves behind"

"They were the best you had, America,
and you turned your back on them".
~ Joe Galloway ~ Speaking about Vietnam Veterans

TO THOSE WHO GAVE THEIR LIVES
THAT OTHERS MAY SAY PROUDLY
I AM A MARINE

Semper Fidelis
Ricardo

Flyin_Lion_1066
03-17-04, 02:38 PM
LOL........What has happened to my Marine Corps since I got out in '85?

Firing the KD course not important enough to spare Marines from their "jobs" to do it? What happened to every Marine being a rifleman first?

I always thought that the best way to keep the enemy from killing me was to kill him first. We always qualified with the rifle (M14 & M16) at ranges that were beyond their supposed maximum effective range. Let the enemy start shooting at 460 meters, I'm going to start shooting at 500 and he'll never get a shot off.

If the Marines have reduced marksmanship training, what has the Army done with theirs?

Somehow, I get the feeling that somewhere in this, someone decided to save a few dollars for the ammo or the time.

kentmitchell
03-17-04, 07:22 PM
All the students in my karate classes always wanted to learn the "Bruce Lee" stuff, flying kicks, fancy moves, etc.
I always harped on the basics. Once you get the basics down, you can do anything, but you always have to keep in touch with the basics.
That's the reason for annual qualifying and shooting on the known distance range. You're polishing your basics.
Once you know how to shoot well and are fundamentally sound, you can do it standing on your head in a toilet.
The generals don't seem to get it.
Maybe careerism is creeping into the Corps faster than we'd like to believe.

fulmetaljackass
03-18-04, 11:29 AM
"Maybe careerism is creeping into the Corps faster than we'd like to believe."

I second that.

arnoldyG/2/5
03-19-04, 03:51 PM
Obviously, I am out of the loop. When I got out in '98, we were still firing the KD course. Has this changed?

stalkmaster
03-22-04, 03:53 PM
I guess this is as good as a topic as any to post my 1st time, I think the hqtrs marine corps should go back to basics.I not only
qual on the KD but as a 8541 much more and it does not matter
whether or not your a cook or in Force Recon you better be able to be a markmanship first and at 10 yds a scope won't do ya much
good and I agree with flyin_ lion when I got out 86' every marine was a rifleman first that was and always should be your job!!

cpl_daley
03-22-04, 04:06 PM
I got out in 99' and we were still doing the ol' KD course! GRRR:(

I look at it this way... the more time spent with that weapon in your hands shooting, the better... and if they have changed anything it better be for MORE firing time! If there's any thought of changing what has succeeded in winning every war we've fought.... has a screw loose.
Looks like the "Beans" are winning over the "Bullets"