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thedrifter
03-03-04, 06:03 PM
Protest To Aim At Equal Topless Rights In Daytona Beach

POSTED: 9:03 am EST March 2, 2004
UPDATED: 6:51 am EST March 3, 2004



DAYTONA BEACH, Fla. -- Liz Book believes exposed breasts are a part of motorcycle culture, so the Volusia County mother plans to lead a protest of topless women on the last day of Bike Week.

Book hopes to lead 1,000 "top-free" women and men along a half-mile of Main Street at noon Sunday.

"I never want to see another girl handcuffed and crying in the street because she yanked her top," said Book, 42. "Exposed breasts have been a part of the biker lifestyle for more than 50 years."

City officials and police are taking a wait-and-see approach, in part because the city's ordinance allows nudity when it is part of a political protest.

"It all depends on their behavior," said Al Tolley, Daytona Beach police spokesman. "The complexion of any protest can change, and it can turn into a lewd act in a heartbeat."

Kevin Kilian, a vice president of The Chamber-Daytona Beach and Halifax Area, said his group also is opposed to Book's planned protest.

"We as a community make a lot of concessions for our visitors," Kilian said. "It shouldn't be too much to ask that they respect the laws while they're here."

The city's nudity ordinance resulted in fines of $253 each for 59 women who exposed their breasts during last year's Bike Week, which attracts tens of thousands of bikers each year from around the nation, according to police records.

Book herself was arrested in 1998 when she bared her breasts inside the Full Moon Saloon bar.

Women recently have won the right to go top-free in parts of Maine, Vermont and in several provinces of Canada, said Morley Schloss, a retired school administrator who helped decriminalize women's bare breasts in New York in the late 1980s.

A group of women in Brevard County, known as the "Topfree 10," have filed a federal lawsuit seeking the right to go shirtless in nonsexual contexts wherever men do.

"We're fighting for our rights to do what men do," said Lori Mauldin, a sales clerk at a Daytona Beach T-shirt shop who intends to march in the protest. "If it's good enough for them, it's good enough for me."

Do you support equal topless rights, allowing women to show their breasts openly, just like men?

http://www.wftv.com/news/2888490/detail.html

Sempers,

Roger
:marine:

TracGunny
03-03-04, 08:01 PM
No, there are many causes in the fall of civilizations (read your history); the decline of society's standard of morality is one of the biggest.

I am afraid I see no comparison to men's breasts and women's, biologically or aesthetically; I have never nearly wrecked my car when a man walks topless down the street...

However, since Daytona is only 80 miles south of me, I just might have to take a trip down there and "see" Ms. Book's side of the argument... :D

greensideout
03-03-04, 08:22 PM
Now there's a TITillating question!

namgrunt
03-04-04, 09:37 AM
There is a part of me which would welcome bare breasted women in the public. And it didn't take Viagra to affect that part. However, I also have to use the larger head to see the potential psychological damage which might result from such openness in front of young children.

When I get past the initial happy reaction, I think of all those women who would have one more reason to inject themselves with materials to enhance their physical appearance. I hate silicone because it is hazardous for the woman to have inside her if the implant breaks, and it looks unnatural.

Worse yet, what of the older ladies who might be tempted to go out shopping sans tops. I don't relish the sight of a wrinkled topless great-grandmother turning into the aisle I'm standing in, buying my bread.

Super Dave
03-04-04, 09:51 AM
Originally posted by TracGunny
No, there are many causes in the fall of civilizations (read your history); the decline of society's standard of morality is one of the biggest.

I am afraid I see no comparison to men's breasts and women's, biologically or aesthetically; I have never nearly wrecked my car when a man walks topless down the street...

However, since Daytona is only 80 miles south of me, I just might have to take a trip down there and "see" Ms. Book's side of the argument... :D

Watch out Ms. Brooks may outweigh you by 100 pounds or more...

yellowwing
03-04-04, 10:44 AM
What? Can't you imagine Janet Reno and her 'friend' walking around topless? :no:

Kurt Stover
03-04-04, 01:19 PM
Seeing Hildabeast topless.....Ack!!! If lying king bill couldn't handel it, ugh...have to think about smashing little puppies heads, cutting, my hand with a dull knife...anything to get that vision out of my head.....Aghhhh!!!!

TracGunny
03-04-04, 03:27 PM
Thanks for ruining the fantasy, people! Here I was thinking she would recruit young co-eds or Hef's girls for the protest... (Out weigh me by 100 pounds? Yuk - shudder)

On a serious note, any of you guys have wives? Daughters? Granddaughters? I still disagree with the public Freedom of Breast idea...

namgrunt
03-04-04, 03:42 PM
I'm sure there will be proponents for this, such as Madonna. If a person wants to go that route, there are nudist communities which would let you go without anything except a dogtag chain to carry your wallet on. I'm not ready for it, but thats my decision.

It would be great if you go to a campus and find bold ladies, but not if you went to church and discovered the craze had gone there too. You can bet someone would try it, for the shock value if nothing else.

namgrunt (The Prude)

usmc4669
03-04-04, 03:58 PM
We need a bill in Congress to allow women to go topless the same as men, then if a man touch her breast fine her $10,000, put her in jail for 6 months, for having breast that invites men to touch. As for old grandmothers the law would state that they would have to roll them up so that they wouldn't be in the way of other shopper shopping for bread, this would do away with training bras for little girls, then dirty old men could look at then without have to worry if they will be put in jail. Outlaw implants, if you have them show then, if not keep them covered. Or then we could pass a bill that would make it illegal for men to go topless, make him wear a bras if they don't and a women touches them fine him $10,000 lock him up in jail for 6 months for having breast like a woman.LOL

mrbsox
03-04-04, 05:01 PM
NO

I would ...

NOT support NO support

(ha-ha... pun intended)

Some things are just generally accepted as being in 'poor taste'. Scratching your ba11s in public.

Some things are just generally accepted as being 'not right', but they are not covered by any law.

Let me draw an anology...

I DO NOT support the idea of women in a combat role. It's not against the law, just against what I think is right. It is also just 'not the thing to do'.
But.... there are times when it MAY be advisable to make the exception. That doesn't mean we need legislation.

A woman bareing herself in public is HER decision, albeit against 'the grain' of normal thinking. But it SHOULD BE her decision to, or not to.

By passing a law making it right, by definition, makes something else wrong, or left out, or discriminated against, or..... law suits waiting !!

Leave it alone (a don't touch pun inserted here) and if you don't like the idea, stay away from bike week.

Terry

mrbsox
03-04-04, 08:37 PM
After reflection,
re-reading the question,
and a simple clubbing over the head (thanks Gunny)

I guess I have to answer

YES

I would support a womans RIGHT to go topless,
but not always her decision to.

CPLRapoza
03-04-04, 09:08 PM
Yes, amd regretably No. Yes because of the fact that, what guy wouldn't mind walking through a college campus and seeing all these hot young ladies bare breasted, I know I wouldn't. But I would have a problem picking my nephews up from middle and High school seeing that. PLus you would have totake in the account of Sexual Harrassment. It's bad enough women you this already to dishonor men, not all cases are fraudulent but alot are. Now just from looking at her you can get charged, because she said you were awking her and she didn't like it. It would cause more harm then good, way more harm. As for the old lady in the grocery store, unless you lie in the BAckwoods of somewhere, I now when I go to the Supermarket I have to put my shirt on, NO shirt No Service. So ladies Just keep that **** where it belongs and leave it there for your own good.

usmc4669
03-04-04, 09:30 PM
Now at 75 I'm not one who don't enjoy looking at a well develop young thing, to me it is art and I repeat art, God put her together, now not for all to see. The way that some of our your and some not so young women dresses they leave nothing to the imagination. So if these women want to go topless in front of a bunch of hog riders then let them, block off an area that the public will have to stay out of or make them pay to go see the fun. Remember the old saying the right to bare arms, then this would be the right to glare breast.

TracGunny
03-04-04, 09:57 PM
usmc4669: um... you're borrowing all those motivation hog-board photos from your 21-year old grandson... right? :D

TracGunny
03-04-04, 10:13 PM
Riderless Motorcycle Injures Two in Fla.
3/4/04

HOLLY HILL, Fla. (AP) - A motorcycle with no rider roared down a street for almost four blocks before sideswiping an oncoming truck and knocking down two people on another motorcycle.

The owner of a new 2004 Kannon V8-Chopper had jumped off the motorcycle Wednesday after the throttle jammed, police said.

Stan Hughes, 41, of Oklahoma, was charged with misdemeanor careless driving, police said.

The injured bikers, Kevin Moyer, 45, and Beth Sattizahn, 38, both from Pennsylvania, were taken to Halifax Medical Center. Moyer was in fair condition Thursday, and Sattizahn was in stable condition in intensive care, a hospital spokeswoman said.

Holly Hill is just north of Daytona Beach, which is in the midst of its annual Bike Week, which attracts tens of thousands of bikers from around the nation.

Copyright 2004 Associated Press

cmbell
03-05-04, 03:35 AM
I see no problem with women bearing it all during Mardi Gras or bike week, but not in everyday life. Girls Gone Wild would go broke. haha

usmc4669
03-05-04, 08:22 AM
TracGunny: No, from my 44 year opld son

TracGunny
03-05-04, 10:59 AM
Originally posted by cmbell
I see no problem with women bearing it all during Mardi Gras or bike week, but not in everyday life. Girls Gone Wild would go broke. haha Even at Mardi Gras if a woman becomes over exuberant with the display of wares she gets cited and hauled off. It seems the cops will tolerate the occasional bead-winner, but even they draw a line during that celebrated flash-fest.

usmc4669
03-05-04, 12:07 PM
TracGunny are you going to HOLLY HILL, Fla?

TracGunny
03-05-04, 12:15 PM
Originally posted by usmc4669
TracGunny are you going to HOLLY HILL, Fla? Not without my Kevlar, flak jacket, and armored car... No, no plans to head south and check out the scenery this year. I may tag along with my brother & his motorcycle riding cop buddies next year…

TracGunny
03-05-04, 07:02 PM
Friday, March 5, 2004

Story last updated at 7:00 p.m. on Friday, March 5, 2004

Women sue to march topless during protest in Daytona Beach

By MIKE SCHNEIDER
Associated Press Writer

ORLANDO, Fla. - Two women who plan to lead a topless protest in Daytona Beach on Sunday sued the city and its mayor Friday in a pre-emptive move to stop police officers from arresting them.

Elizabeth Book and Shirley Mason asked a judge in U.S. District Court in Orlando to issue a restraining order prohibiting city police officers from arresting marchers during a topless protest on the last day of Bike Week, the annual gathering of motorcycle aficionados.

No one answered the phone at U.S. District Judge Gregory Presnell's office late Friday. Lawrence Walters, an attorney for the women, said he hadn't gotten a response late Friday from the judge on whether there would be a hearing.

The women believe it's unfair that men can go topless in public places while they can't. They claimed in their lawsuit they should be allowed to protest topless under the free speech, freedom to assemble and equal protection clauses of the Constitution.

"We're seeking to stop law enforcement from arresting these individuals protesting topless in the city," Walters said. "The police have threatened arrest under the disorderly conduct ordinance. They don't apply during a political protest."

Robert Brown, city attorney for Daytona Beach, and Sgt. Al Tolley, a spokesman for the Daytona Beach Police Department, didn't return phone calls.

City manager Richard Quigley on Wednesday sent Book a letter and a copy of city statutes on obstructing sidewalks, disorderly conduct and public nudity. He warned in the letter that "violations of laws or ordinances will be subjected to intervention by law enforcement."

The public nudity ordinance requires a "full and opaque covering" of the nipple and areola of a woman's breast, in addition to half of the outside surface of the breast located below the areola.

Daytona Beach Commissioner Darlene Yordon said city officials and police officers would wait and see what the protesters did before taking any action.

"We don't know why they're doing this whole production," Yordon said. "What we're doing is taking a wait-and-see attitude because we're not sure what they're doing."

Copyright Associated Press.
http://www.jacksonville.com/tu-online/apnews/stories/030504/D814G7K80.shtml

usmc4669
03-05-04, 09:31 PM
I know how to take care of this and eveyrone will be happy. Let these two women go topless, put them in front 10 yards ahead of all of the other in this march or whatever it is. Then give the police paintball guns and if their boobs bobs up snd down fire a paintball at them, this would be one way in covering them up, get it? With paint.

TracGunny
03-06-04, 11:34 PM
Saturday, March 6, 2004
Story last updated at 4:30 p.m. on Saturday, March 6, 2004

Lawyer: Despite court loss, women's topless protest will go on

By MIKE BRANOM
Associated Press Writer

ORLANDO, Fla. - Two women are planning to lead a topless protest Sunday in Daytona Beach in spite of a federal judge's refusal to stop police officers from arresting them.

Shirley Mason and Elizabeth Book intend to march with other shirtless women and men for a half-mile on the last day of Bike Week, the annual gathering of motorcycle aficionados, their attorney said Saturday.

"The court did not rule that they can't have the protest, or if anyone is right or wrong," Lawrence Walters said.

Book and Mason sued the city and mayor in a pre-emptive move in federal court in Orlando on Friday, seeking a restraining order to prohibit police officers from arresting topless marchers.

The women believe it is unfair that only men are allowed to go topless in public places. Their lawsuit claimed they should be allowed to protest topless under the free speech, freedom to assemble and equal protection clauses of the U.S. Constitution.

U.S. District Judge Gregory Presnell refused to grant the injunction because there wasn't time to hear from both sides, Walters said.

Messages left with Robert Brown, city attorney for Daytona Beach, and the police department were not immediately returned Saturday.

Daytona Beach officials have warned the planned protest violates city ordinances against public nudity, disorderly conduct and obstructing sidewalks.

The public nudity ordinance requires a "full and opaque covering" of the nipple and aureola of a woman's breast, in addition to half of the outside surface of the breast located below the aureola.

City manager Richard Quigley said in a letter to Book that "violations of laws or ordinances will be subjected to intervention by law enforcement."

Walters said the police officials he talked to are noncommittal about what might happen Sunday.

"My hope is that they're going to be reasonable out there," Walters said. "But they're keeping their options open.

Mason, executive director of the pro-nude beach Beaches Foundation Institute, has battled other government agencies over their topless policies. She is one of 10 women suing Brevard County over its anti-nudity ordinance.

Copyright Associated Press.
http://www.jacksonville.com/tu-online/apnews/stories/030604/D8150U4O0.shtml

usmc4669
03-07-04, 12:24 PM
What are they protesting, going topless? Let then, maybe if they get their tits sunburned they will cover them up. Lord help us what is this country comming to, not allowed to go topless.

Osotogary
03-07-04, 01:20 PM
the sun.

greybeard
03-07-04, 01:47 PM
Some things are just generally accepted as being in 'poor taste'. Scratching your ba11s in public.

Huh? Since when? If you itch, you gotta scratch!
Now that thing the young folks do walking around constantly holding em-tha's just wrong. If ya itch all the time, see a doc.

Kinda surprised so many folks voted as I did. No.

greybeard
03-07-04, 01:52 PM
The public nudity ordinance requires a "full and opaque covering" of the nipple and aureola of a woman's breast, in addition to half of the outside surface of the breast located below the aureola.

Now there's a job I'd like to apply for. "Don-get your caliphers and measure those 2-looks like less than half is covered to me"

"Aye Aye Sir! I'll get right on em!!"

vfm
03-07-04, 03:26 PM
No not in favor of this. I'm no prude but there is a time & place for things. Look what happened on Super Bowl Sunday.
Semper Fi!!!
vfm

TracGunny
03-07-04, 04:37 PM
Sunday, March 7, 2004

Story last updated at 5:00 p.m. on Sunday, March 7, 2004
Woman arrested for baring breasts at protest in Daytona Beach

The Associated Press
DAYTONA BEACH, Fla. - A woman who organized a topless protest of this city's public nudity ordinance was arrested Sunday after she exposed her breasts while marching down a crowded street.

Elizabeth Book, 42, of Ormond Beach, was the only woman who bared her breasts during the protest, police said. She was released from jail and ordered to pay a $253 fine or make a court appearance.

Book's lawyer, Larry Walters, said she is considering notifying the federal court in Orlando that police violated her First Amendment rights by preventing her from carrying out a "political demonstration." The nudity ordinance does not cover political demonstrations, he said.

The protest was held on the last day of Bike Week, the annual gathering of motorcycle aficionados. It featured several men who took off their shirts in support and a group of protesters who held signs that said, "Stop sexualizing my breasts."

Book and co-organizer Shirley Mason sued the city and mayor in a pre-emptive move in federal court in Orlando on Friday, saying they believe it is unfair that only men are allowed to go topless in public places. Their lawsuit claimed they should be allowed to protest topless under the free speech, freedom to assemble and equal protection clauses of the U.S. Constitution.

Daytona Beach officials had warned the protest would violate city ordinances against public nudity, disorderly conduct and obstructing sidewalks. The nudity ordinance requires a "full and opaque covering" of the nipple and aureola of a woman's breast, in addition to half of the surface of the breast below the aureola.

Robin Anderson, 36, used that part of the ordinance to avoid arrest Sunday. The Port Orange resident covered each of her breasts with a local radio station sticker and lifted her shirt.

Mason, executive director of Beaches Foundation Institute, a pro-nude beach organization, has battled other government agencies over their topless policies. She is one of 10 women suing Brevard County over its anti-nudity ordinance.

Copyright Associated Press.
http://www.jacksonville.com/tu-online/apnews/stories/030704/D815P3Q80.shtml

TracGunny
03-07-04, 04:40 PM
I guess I'm a little disappointed... only one arrest? I guess the protesters didn't get the support exposure they had hoped for...

FREEBIRD
03-07-04, 08:41 PM
It really doesnt matter what anybody thinks, the biker moms are going to show tits legal or not. I see more tits and ass by going to bike events than any other time I can think of, always been that way always will, and yes they do arrest a few of them, but thats the stupid ones who usually are drunk and just dont have sense enough to keep their tops down when cops are around.
I think a womans body is pretty and they should have the decision to show or not to show, but who am I??? Also who ever said something about kids???? most kids have seen a naked woman by age of 5 so I dont think it will be anything new......

FREEBIRD

usmc4669
03-11-04, 11:43 AM
Now we have Panama Beach, FL going crazy with "Girls Gone Wild" stupid young collage girls making some slime ball rich by showing thesr beast kissing each other, licking each other bodies going as far as they can without showing homosexuial acts

stusrt
03-12-04, 11:04 AM
I was at bike week this year - any MAYBE saw a total of 3 sets of boobs.
Very disappointing!
My first trip was in 1989 with tons of flashing. Much better.
So I'm 100% behind the women's right to bare all.

TracGunny
03-16-04, 09:36 PM
The Associated Press
DAYTONA BEACH, Fla. - A hotel owner and four others were arrested after a Spring Break bikini contest got out of hand, police said.

Dennis Devlin, 50, owner of the Desert Inn was charged with disorderly conduct, along with Jennifer Pennington, 18, Lauren Asp, 22, both of Jacksonville, and Amanda Ryncarz, 18, of Sanford.

Police said the women took off their clothing in front of a crowd of 400 people, including undercover police officers.

Josh Martin, 21, a deejay at the hotel who police say called out to girls to expose themselves, was charged with possession of marijuana and solicitation of exposure.

"I never incited the crowd. I never did anything," Devlin said Monday. "I believe this was a setup."

Information from: Daytona Beach News-Journal, http://www.news-journalonline.com

Copyright Associated Press.

hmm... Bike Week & Spring Break... maybe I should consider moving to Daytona...

TracGunny
06-13-04, 10:15 AM
I figured I would go ahead and post this since there may be ...oh ...one, or two members of the forum who enjoy riding a hog... - TG

Saturday, June 12, 2004
Story last updated at 10:45 a.m. on Saturday, June 12, 2004

South Wire: Daytona Beach wants bikers to know they're loved

By MIKE SCHNEIDER
Associated Press Writer

DAYTONA BEACH, Fla. - Businesses in this tourist mecca have a message for the half-million motorcyclists who roar into town every spring: You're loved and we want you back.

The campaign by the area's chamber of commerce and visitor's bureau is designed to counter a cacophony of complaints from many in this city of 70,000 that the annual Bike Week brings with it ear-blistering noise.

"There isn't a city in the nation that wouldn't give their right arm for an event like this," said Bonnie Miller, a biker who serves on a committee that helped come up with the public relations push.

Set to be launched in time for Daytona Beach's other big motorcycle festival in the fall, Biketoberfest, the campaign will encourage bartenders to wear buttons welcoming bikers.

It also includes ads, to run in motorcycle trade magazines and Web sites, featuring a man wearing a business suit but exposing his tattooed arm with the text, "There's a little biker in all of us."

Business leaders hope to educate residents about how bikers benefit both the local economy and charities. They don't want to jeopardize the two biker-related staples of the local tourism industry.

"Our message is, 'We appreciate your business and we're glad you're here'," said Kevin Kilian, a vice president of The Chamber, Daytona Beach & Halifax Area.

Daytona Beach has always been a mecca for bikers, not only for out-of-towners who come to the festivals, but also for many residents who moved from other parts of the country for the numerous biker-friendly bars and stores in the community.

A 2001 study by a University of Central Florida professor showed that the biker events had a combined $744 million economic impact on Daytona Beach, by far the largest of the city's "special events." That's significantly more than the $561 million generated by the Daytona 500 and the Pepsi 400 at the Daytona International Speedway, the $196 million from spring break and the $145 million from Black College Reunion, the annual gathering of college-age African-Americans.

Many of those who live near Main Street, where tens of thousands of motorcycles often create impenetrable gridlock during Bike Week, say they aren't against the bikers themselves.

"The bikers are just as welcome here as can be, but the noise is not," said Bill Lane, vice chairman of an area neighborhood association. "There is more bikers can do about the noise."

Along Main Street at the Boot Hill Saloon, a popular biker hangout where women's bras hang above the bar and bikers are prohibited from wearing certain patches to prevent fights among rival clubs, patrons praised the effort.

"I've always felt welcomed here, but if they crack down on something like this, they should close that racetrack because that's just as noisy," said Bill Baker, a biker from Kingsport, Tenn., referring to the city's famed speedway.

"Any time you get a quarter million motorcycles together, you're going to get some noise," added Tom Guest, who operates Choppers World, a Main Street motorcycles parts and accessories store.

During this year's Bike Week, police issued 504 tickets for muffler violations, punishable by a $44 fine, and 24 notices to appear in court for the misdemeanor offense of revving the engine while not moving. That offense is punishable by a $500 fine or 60 days in jail, although most violators ended up paying $103.

By comparison, 359 muffler violations were issued and a single engine-revving notice were issued during the same time in 2003.

From his Harley-Davidson store on Main Street, John Craig noticed police officers issuing more citations than usual to bikers with "loud pipes" on their motorcycles and women flashing their breasts.

"People come here to have a good time and spend money," Craig said. "And then when it costs them money, they don't feel welcome."

City officials recently have been trying to clean up the area's image, backing a multimillion-dollar transformation of several blocks of the city's oceanfront to appeal to a more upscale clientele. Upscale retailers, high-rise timeshares and resort hotels have replaced mom-and-pop motels and T-shirt shops.

The clean-up effort has included attempts to limit rowdy behavior at spring break and Black College Reunion through a campaign that Mayor Yvonne Scarlett-Golden launched called "respect." The campaign asked visitors to follow a code of conduct and placed garbage can sleeves emblazoned with "It's all about respect" around the city.

The mayor hopes to extend the "respect" campaign to the biker events and is considering proposing an ordinance requiring mufflers on motorcycles.

"We've got to make residents be able to accept that Daytona Beach is a place where bikers are extremely interested in coming," Scarlett-Golden said.

On the Net:

Daytona Beach Area Convention & Visitors Bureau: www.daytonabeachcvb.org
The Chamber, Daytona Beach Halifax Area: www.daytonachamber.com

Copyright Associated Press.
http://www.jacksonville.com/tu-online/apnews/stories/061204/D8357VRO3.shtml

WillManning
06-13-04, 03:19 PM
Loud Pipes Save Lives....

<b>The campaign by the area's chamber of commerce and visitor's bureau is designed to counter a cacophony of complaints from many in this city of 70,000 that the annual Bike Week brings with it ear-blistering noise. </b>


With the sound dampening tech, cell phones, and DVD players that vehicles have today, no one really pays attention until there is a loud noise.

Eaglestrikes
06-13-04, 07:02 PM
A Right? No. We have enough people in Judicial positions rewriting the Constitution. No Amendment exist that allows for such a right. All rights are God Given, enumerated, and affirmed by the Constitution. That is not one of them.
If an individual city (it has been done) wants to pass a LAW or Ordinance making it LAWFUL for a Women to bare their breast, so be it. Disney made it seem a perfectly good thing to allow Homosexuals to have free reign at Disneyland. I do not visit nor take my Grandchildren to Disneyland. If a City passed that ordinance I would bypass that city. That would be my decision not someone else's. On the other hand there may be a bunch of people flocking to that city. So Be It.