Modernizing the Marine Rifle Squad

[FoxtrotOscar]

https://youtu.be/jfVxspzh0Pg

[FistFu68]

Uh Hun start Humping Mt F’er twice a day in all kinds of weather conditions day & night ‘cause w/all that Firepower your boasting your gonna hump it.I can see it now a lot of Wasted AMMO ! All that fully Automatic fire is Horsechit

[oldtop]

last I heard they were planning on replacing the 3 round burst with a return to the FA setting on the pre-M16A2 rifle...

[FistFu68]

IDK Top during my time In Country Fire discipline was strictly adhered too Dam gunny could hear the men that broke it,then He beat their a$$ we didn’t have the Luxury of having the Ammo flown out Gooks used too Jump up spraying the area too only get their heads blown oFF by a Single well placed shot Just hope the Corps still emphasizes this :confused:

[Mongoose]

That's what I tell 'em Jack.....the movies show all these Marines or Soldiers just firing away at any and all things that moved. Shows 'em all but melting their barrels. That's bullshet......we only had so much ammo and we had to make it count. We carried water and ammo....when it was gone, we were in bad shape.

[FistFu68]

Right On Billy I hear all this Horsechit from Sum these Youngbucks that these Marines are bigger stronger smarter etc etc they don’t Hump 1/2 the Chit we did or the Nam Era Marines did as far as this 5.56 or this new 6 ? WhatEv the **** taking 3to 5 rnds to drop a Muzzy raghead f**k that’s killing Marines w/antiquated chit the 7.62 is filling graves registration UP so they are bigger & stronger and smarter Eh ? Oh Lord who the F**K is working @ Combat Development Mainside Quantico,Gen Baby Einstein and his Staff ?

[Mongoose]

Thing these idiots need to learn is, war is fought up close and personal for a Marine Grunt. Wars are won by being more vicious and smarter than your enemy. In the middle of a fight, conserving ammo and water, and making your shots count, is the way to survive.

[FistFu68]

Everybody caught uP on being a Sniper Wasting a SOB 1/2 mile away ! Yah know they coming uP with these new 338 Super MaG horsechit Billy all the while We’re using this same Ole Chit candy a$$ round 5.56 now this 6.5 or whatEv the f**k Chit has been going on since the 60’s College BoyZ in Quantico having a Leg pi$$ing Contest all the While young men & women getting tagged & bagged by the Same Commie round that has been doing the JOB very effectively now the Commies gonna do a 7.62 jacked uP ammo that will turn anybodys body armor in2 Swiss Chesse ! Your right Billy maybe the High UP Brass don’t wanna win wars ? Something very stupid gong in here.Then you’ve got a 97lb Somalis humping an AK47 and TWO mags too War and killing Special Ops Men

[Zulu 36]

Everybody caught uP on being a Sniper Wasting a SOB 1/2 mile away ! Yah know they coming uP with these new 338 Super MaG horsechit Billy all the while We’re using this same Ole Chit candy a$$ round 5.56 now this 6.5 or whatEv the f**k Chit has been going on since the 60’s College BoyZ in Quantico having a Leg pi$$ing Contest all the While young men & women getting tagged & bagged by the Same Commie round that has been doing the JOB very effectively now the Commies gonna do a 7.62 jacked uP ammo that will turn anybodys body armor in2 Swiss Chesse ! Your right Billy maybe the High UP Brass don’t wanna win wars ? Something very stupid gong in here.Then you’ve got a 97lb Somalis humping an AK47 and TWO mags too War and killing Special Ops Men

The old Tsarist Russian (yes, pre-communist) 7.62mm x 54R is a very good round and they still use it in their Draganov sniper rifles and some machine guns. I've shot it out of Draganov's, machine guns, and Mosin-Nagants. Very good round.

Jack, I really like your leg ****ing contest remark. Very accurate, jut like a 54R.

[FistFu68]

Yessir Sgt Z you know the Scoop you should be down @ Quantico as an Advisor too them College Boyz Square them Away

[oldtop]

IDK Top during my time In Country Fire discipline was strictly adhered too Dam gunny could hear the men that broke it,then He beat their a$$ we didn’t have the Luxury of having the Ammo flown out Gooks used too Jump up spraying the area too only get their heads blown oFF by a Single well placed shot Just hope the Corps still emphasizes this :confused:


Jack, as far as I know, the Corps still emphasizes marksmanship and enforces fire discipline, but we're still sucking hind tit when it comes to equipment of all kinds... the Army and Air Farce have so much more in the way of personnel, MONEY and equipment that WE get stuck with whatever THEY decide to buy... I was "in country" when the Corps started the changeover to the M16, I found it to be a POS then, and that is my opinion of it still... I stayed with my M14 for my entire tour and would not have given it up for 20 M16's... the only 16 that I think is reliable today is the new M4 version that has a GAS PISTON instead of the "direct impingement" gas system of the older M16.... in it's quest for accuracy and range, the M16 has had it's rifling twist reduced from 1 in 12 to 1 in 7 inches and the bullet weight increased to 62 grains... the result is certainly more accuracy and range, but at the cost of LETHALITY... the fully stabilized bullet now has a tendency to over penetrate and give "through and through" wounds instead of tumbling on impact which is what made the 5.56 round deadly out to 300 meters.... JMHO of course, but given the choice, I still go for the M14 and one shot kills.....

[advanced]

I also fired a few rounds downrange at a few of them dinks, that's why I know those damn bump stocks they've been outlawing were full of ****. Sounds great at the range I imagine, firing off 30 just like that. But I'm still not a waster of my ammo, especially now that I'm having to buy my own. Those bloopers are nice, but 1 per fireteam? Overkill to me. I've seen 2 Marines during my time that had rounds lodged in their skulls from friendly fire. 2 close to go off but those Marines didn't make it.

I carried the 16 during my time, of course, I had a guy on my team that would clean it for me whenever I asked, but I learned, my at home rifle is an AK, I learned much respect for them and ammo is cheap, still not to be wasted though.

I agree Jack, couldn't nobody outhump us back in our day. I was 5'11' and 135lbs, part of the mean green killing machine. And the firepower we could put out, what a thing of beauty that only a 7 man squad could do that much damage. Makes me proud. S/F

[FistFu68]

Yessir too Both of yah you Men speak from eXperience no doubt when I first arrived in Country about 3weeks In my Squad was attached too a ARVN Ranger Platoon by Quang Tri we started getting hammered by NVA & VC @ about 3am the ZigZag trench line was full of Chit from 30cal machine guns Two 50’s I’m a very big fan of Shotguns I grabbed an M1Garand the Zips made it too about the first set of Wire less that 50yrds away then we lit their Sapper A$$e$ UP about daylight we went too see the damage done IDK who killed who but I do know there was Entrance & some eXit wounds on two of those I knew the 30:06 in the torso area had f**Ked them UP I only fired 5 rnds of the 8

[Zulu 36]

Yessir Sgt Z you know the Scoop you should be down @ Quantico as an Advisor too them College Boyz Square them Away

Jack,

I know the theory and history. You, Billy, Russ, Oldtop, and others know the practical application of that theory far better than I do.

Sure, I've shot, M-1 Garands, M-14s, M-16s (all many variants), many US machine guns, AK-47 (many variants), different Soviet machine guns, and many other foreign military weapons. But I've never done it in combat (came close, but no cigar).

As with you guys, I don't know why the US military is spending so much time and treasure trying to re-invent the wheel. I understand the theory of switching from a 7.62mm rifle to a 5.56mm rifle was partially to allow a greater ammo supply to be carried for no greater weight load. Unfortunately, the powers that be screwed up the introduction of the M-16 AND its ammunition. Perhaps if they listened to people who knew, they would have issued the M-16 in an A1 version right off the bat, AND fixed the powder in the round (plus provided better training in field maintenance), many more Vietnam vets may think well of the rifle.

When I was in Vietnam, I had an M-16A1 and the improved ammunition. I did shoot on a range periodically and had one malfunction - caused by a damaged 20-round magazine. I was also trained on field maintenance in ITR. I have never had a malfunction of any M-16 variant since that magazine stoppage in 1972 (not counting using blanks). I own an AR-15 now that shoots flawlessly.

As Oldtop pointed out, the military changed the twist in the barrels and the bullet weight and composition. The 62gr "Green Tip" actually has steel at the nose, with lead at the back. Of course its going to penetrate much better, and overly so on some Muzzy not wearing armor (i.e., most of them). The 55gr bullet is all lead under the jacket, and it is better for closer range battle than the Green Tips. The Green Tips are more accurate past 300-meters than the 55gr rounds, I will admit. But in CQB, the 55gr bullet is superior to the 62gr.

[FistFu68]

Yes Sarge I never had any problems w/M16 I always kept it clean I’d love too have a shorty like my papa carried as an RA Army lifer,when I went down too Vung Tau to say howdy I thought it was pretty Cool and it was fun shooting it on Full Auto,He just smiled when I passed through the MP’s humping that ole Ithaca sp? 12gauge w/bayonet lug lol

[advanced]

Z, like you said, I was also trained on the 14, then the M1 in ITR and infantry school. I wasn't given an M16 until I arrived in the Nam, I had never seen one before and forget about any training. I was trained on the job. Mine was a good one though and I never had many flaws. Mine had the 3 prongs in the front, my guess is it was an early model.

As for not being in combat, you didn't miss anything. Next time I'm going to be in the rear with the gear and not drop off 35-40 pounds. And the Corpsmen were wrong, the damn jungle rot never did go away.

[Zulu 36]

Z, like you said, I was also trained on the 14, then the M1 in ITR and infantry school. I wasn't given an M16 until I arrived in the Nam, I had never seen one before and forget about any training. I was trained on the job. Mine was a good one though and I never had many flaws. Mine had the 3 prongs in the front, my guess is it was an early model.

As for not being in combat, you didn't miss anything. Next time I'm going to be in the rear with the gear and not drop off 35-40 pounds. And the Corpsmen were wrong, the damn jungle rot never did go away.

Russ, Well, I did get shot at, rocketed and mortared enough to last me. I was just too busy driving a truck to shoot back. My A-drivers did that. And my jungle rot hasn't gone away either.

One of my many jobs was teaching people in my unit how to maintain and shoot the M16. They were almost all M14 people and nary an M14 to be had in our armory. We did have a bunch of M3 greaseguns for the pilots. M1911 pistols, mostly for SNCOs and non-flying officers, plus S&W M10 .38 spcl revolvers for the pilots when they flew. We had some 12ga shotguns too for flightline guard duty. I got to learn how to use and maintain all of those other guns too. It was squadron policy for everyone, including pilots, to come to the armory every week and clean their weapons under supervision. Normally supervised by me and a couple of other junior Marines who knew the M16.

The three-pronged flash suppressors were on the M-16s and early M-16A1s. I had a three-prong on my A1 in Vietnam. They were replaced shortly after Vietnam was over by the basket-type still seen now. The three-prongers got bent too easily (gee, maybe by GIs and Marines using them to snap the wires on C-Rat cases?? Which they did very well.)

Now, this may be odd, but when I enlisted in the Air National Guard in 1979, I was issued an AR-15, full-auto, with no-forward assist, and a three-prong suppressor. I had the chamber, bolt, and barrel chromed like an M-16A1 (a retro-fit job). Everyone else in my unit either had an AR-15 or an M-16, all retrofitted to M-16A1 standard except for the forward assist. When the M-16A2 came out, we replaced the flash suppressor with an M-16A2 model, and all of the furniture with M-16A2 stuff. So at a glance, it looked like we had an M-16A2. I will say that rifle was a reliable and good shooter. Not long before Desert Storm, all flight sergeants were issued CAR-16s (the daddy of the M4). Mine was also a good shooter and reliable. The Air Guard was the red-headed step child of the Air Force and the Marine Corps had much more modern gear than we had. However, our full-time guy became a master of the use of the supply system (and we had a wing commander who liked us) and by Desert Storm we were right up there (except for guns). We were the first Air Guard unit in the country to get Kevlar helmets when they first came out.

I went to my old Guard unit's reunion last year. Now they have all the same stuff issued to active duty AF security forces units.

[FistFu68]

How’s about a new Super Flame Thrower? Chit can them LAWS saw bad Chit happen Bunker bustin back in the day a very mobile 106 recoilless rifle and my dream Grunt Co backUp an Auto Load ONTOS w/them BadA$$ rounds them M1 Tanks are using !! Aye Aye Semper Fi

[Mongoose]

Someone asked a Navy FMF Corpsman what his weapon of choice in Nam was......he replied ......a Marine Grunt.

[advanced]

I'm not knocking the Doc's it's just that I always hear how they did their job in the midst of constant danger. And, they did, it's just that they did it embedded with US! I always hear it like we were just with them to a slight degree, as an afterthought.