PDA

View Full Version : The Corps Today, Yesterday, Tomorrow.



USMC 2571
07-21-17, 07:17 AM
Another thread got me thinking----what about a topic all are interested in. Namely the past, present, future Marine Corps. We served, but we are not in the know when it comes to what's going on now, the different changes, the trends, how the Corps differs from when we were in, 1963 to 1967 in my case. Mongoose and I talked about how Leatherneck Magazine just isn't what it used to be, to us, as we have no idea what they're talking about half the time, the newer terminology, the technology, the customs etc have changed somewhat. So I decided to start this thread.

Depending on what happens, this thread might end up being moved to the Marine Only section of this forum, but that is for others to decide.

USMC 2571
07-21-17, 07:19 AM
One of many big changes in in the area of the MOS. When I was in, we had absolutely no say in what MOS would be handed to us. Classification Tests at boot camp, plus the ever-present "needs of the Corps" determined what our jobs would be. Nowadays people can choose the field but not the specific job within that field, which leads to untold of anxieties and concerns, will I get this, can I get that, can I go into Recon after a week in boot camp??? So maybe the old days were better, you joined because you wanted to be a Marine.

USMC 2571
07-21-17, 07:48 AM
Anyone have any info or insights as to what the Corps is about these days? Post it here please. We who served some time ago have no other way to know how things have or have not changed.

advanced
07-21-17, 07:59 AM
I landed in Parris Island in January 1967. Back in that day almost all Marines were volunteers and in my mind, and I believe the minds of others, we all thought of the Marine Corps as only infantry. So, as I went through my training at PI there was no other thought in my mind that I would be anything other than infantry. We were trained as infantry, and at the end about 85 of the 96 recruits in my platoon were sent to infantry, needs of the Corps. Many of us then went on to make more Marine Corps History.

Sorry, I know nothing of today's MC. I only hope that they are as dedicated as we were.

Mongoose
07-21-17, 07:59 AM
Well Brother Dave.......one difference is....we were not brain-washed into PC nice guys. We came out of boot-camp with a chip on our shoulder. We didn't join to get funds for a future education. In our time we joined to fight, which is what Marines are there for. We wanted to get into the thick of fighting for our Country.

USMC 2571
07-21-17, 08:01 AM
True---you and I have talked by phone many many times about the fact that we had no IDEA that there even were "jobs" in the Corps. I figured all Marines were Marines and they had no specific job. :) We actually had no way of knowing much about it with no Internet around.

USMC 2571
07-21-17, 08:03 AM
And the thing is, our ignorance was in fact bliss. We knew nothing about the Corps or who did what or what would happen. And it was a blessing, because all we have to do is look at Ask A Marine section to see the anxiety about how much time the DIs will give them to tie their shoelaces in the morning. They worry about everything, they want to know the whole future right now. We did not care about any of that. Whatever happened, happened.

USMC 2571
07-21-17, 08:06 AM
Here I am wondering why I don't know much about today's Marine Corps, then I realize that I went in just 18 years after the end of World War II.

I guess that explains my lack of knowledge about today's Corps.

USMC 2571
07-21-17, 08:40 AM
This thread may not work out well at all----

because all we know is the Corps we are or were in. If, in the 1960s, someone had asked me, hey, how has the Corps changed in the last fifty years? How should I know? I have no idea what it used to be like. All I know is the here and now.

So----your thoughts are still welcome, but the question probably should be "What is the Corps like today?"-----then we can figure out for ourselves what changes have occurred.

Zulu 36
07-21-17, 09:04 AM
Well, among you guys I'm the boot. I went to boot camp in 1971. I had been "prepped" by my father, a WWII Marine, and a boss of mine who was a Korea Marine. While things had changed since their day, the underlying stuff was still there. Needs of the Corps, very hostile DIs, picky attention to detail, etc. I did OK in boot camp and 90% of it was a surprise I just had to deal with. My father thought my uniforms were "officer's material," and my making meritorious PFC was new for him, but much of the rest I told him was pretty familiar. Sure I used the M14 and he used a Springfield 03, but some changes are inevitable.

I knew going in that there were multiple MOS fields available and they would be assigned based on tests and needs of the Corps. I was made a truck driver. I expected to be made infantry, but the Corps needed truck drivers and a bunch of us from my series were sent to truck driver's school after ITR. I didn't like Motor T, although it set me up for adventures and experiences that I may not have had otherwise (including nine months in the Nam).

When I went in, the Corps was transitioning into a peacetime outfit. Vietnam was essentially over for the Corps. However, my unit out of Iwakuni, Japan, was sent to Vietnam in May 1972 for the Easter Offensive to provide air support in the An Loc area. We stayed until the war ended in January 1973.

Coming back to the States, I came back to a different Marine Corps. Discipline sucked, racial strife was rampant, drug use was up. I didnt like it. I was at Camp Lejeune and it was like being back in Detroit with vicious assaults and murders taking place. Still, I re-upped and moved to MPs. I stayed with MPs until Oct 1977 when my enlistment was up and I got out. My CO tried to talk me into staying, but I felt I could do better in the civilian world. I did. I went into civilian police work and retired as a deputy chief.

I did do a year in the Marine Reserves, but that was a waste of time. Then I was talked into the Michigan Air Guard and I did 14-years there (including a trip to the sand box in 1990-91).

madsox
07-21-17, 09:21 AM
Good thread, Dave - we can bump it and get some attention. I'll chime in with what I experienced in the 80s and 90s.

It was different but a lot the same. In boot camp (1984), my Senior DI and many of the others were Vietnam vets, so we got trained with mostly the same mindset that you did.Yes, it was peacetime and nothing big was going on, but the Marines who were teaching us knew what it was like to be dropped into the shiz, and were determined that we'd be as ready as they could make us.

We could, by that time, request an MOS field (I was pre-assigned, because I went in Reserve, so it was for a specific billet at the unit I was going to come back out to), but there was still no guarantee. I think most recruits went in on open contracts. Late in third phase we got called into a school circle, and the SDI called out who was going to what MOS school.

Lots more changes were coming along, but that's good for the first blast. Training was hard, recruits got thumped out behind the barracks when they needed it, and we survived it just fine!

s/f and more later 8-)

USMC 2571
07-21-17, 10:29 AM
Excellent posts as always, Chris and Andy----

Tennessee Top
07-21-17, 10:48 AM
I am still connected to the Corps today by some small degree. One of my former corporals is now a CWO and career recruiter so he is a valuable source of info when it comes to recruiting matters (he...

USMC 2571
07-21-17, 10:51 AM
But it's enough for you to be able to help out quite a bit in the Ask A Marine section of this forum. You certainly help a lot there. Thanks for all your posts, they are always informative.

Mongoose
07-21-17, 04:21 PM
I can't really talk about very much about the Corps. For me it was fast and furious. Sometimes it seems like a blur. In 67, bootcamp had shortened because of demand in Nam. The rest of our training, such as ITR and BITS was also shortened. 10 day leave, then Staging. Spent 12 months in Nam, was wounded twice. The last time put me in the Philly Naval Hospital for 9 months, off and on. Went on and was medically separated. I never got to be an actual Marine. Didn't get to travel any where, or enjoy the week-ends with brother Marines. However, I would not change anything.

The Skipper
07-21-17, 08:05 PM
Zulu 36, I'll relieve you as the boot in this thread. I went to OCS through the Platoon Leaders Course (2 x 6 week sessions during summer breaks from college) back in 2008 and 2009. Commissioned in 2010. Today, poolees sign up for an Occupational Field (i.e. 03xx) and then find out what they are assigned specifically toward the end of bootcamp. If they're foolish enough or their recruiter is slick enough, they also can sign an open contract, which 75% of the time means they end up as Food Service. Sometimes the poolees just want to be a Marine and will sign an open contract to get in ASAP rather than wait a few months for a OccField they want.

On the officer side, Candidates contract as either Ground, Air or Law. Air know before OCS if they'll be pilots or NFOs and Law obviously is only given to lawyers or law students. ~75% of newly commissioned 2ndLts are ground contract, which means they get their MOS toward the end of TBS. They list their preferences and TBS staff assigns MOSs based on their ranking, needs of the Corps, quality spread, and preference. Most 2ndLts get something in their top 3-4 picks, with high density MOSs being logistics, comm, infantry, etc. Smaller MOSs (like mine, 3404) usually only have 3-6 slots to fill in a 300 Lt company.

The MOS demographics have certainly changed. I can't cite a reference, but the common statistic that is thrown out is that for every 0311 LCpl who kicks the door in, there are about 23 Marines in support -- from pay, food, transportation, equipment, comms, etc. The Division is and always will be the Main Effort of the Corps, but given the survivability of a Platoon in Afghanistan (which might lose a few on deployment) compared to a Platoon in Vietnam, there is less need for mass numbers of 03xx.

The Marine Corps is also very willing to demonstrate the "every Marine a Rifleman" still holds true. My first deployment to Afghanistan I filled a 0402 billet and my Senior Enlisted Advisor was a 13xx MSgt. We had over 50 MOSs in the company, including a Sgt from the 1st MarDiv band (told me he played the skin-flute, I never got a real instrument out of him). Only one of my PltCmdrs was a 0402. The others were Aviation Supply and Engineer (XO was an Engineer too). I know lawyers and pilots who filled 0302 billets in Iraq and Afghanistan during the surge years. The goal is to become a "MAGTF Officer" who is well rounded. You generally don't make it to the field grades if you haven't demonstrated a bit of diversity and flexibility.

USMC 2571
07-21-17, 08:16 PM
Very interesting. So many changes over the years and yet some things have remained and will remain the same, I guess.

FoxtrotOscar
07-21-17, 09:08 PM
Yes, many changes..

I was a re-tread.. did my 4.6 and got out, than a year later back in..

I was privy to new equipment, regulations that came and went depending on who was running the show...

Much, much more including the "Zero" Deficit mentality era, the PC entry and so forth..

I pretty much keep abreast of all new and current going ons, especially in the equipment and tactics, of course being a former contractor for DHS was especially beneficial...

:cry:

USMC 2571
07-21-17, 09:17 PM
Interesting, Mike, to hear how it was in different eras.

FoxtrotOscar
07-21-17, 09:37 PM
Not to mention how many Uniform changes went on, I got the original issue of Khakis, Tropicals, Wool Greens and basic Utilities.

The we got over 4 different kinds of cammies as they progressed, woodland be the most dominant, then the boos and covers changed, went to Summer and winter green uniforms..

Green t-shirts finally came about after much hand wringing, please, we wear cammo and still wore white t's... lol

USMC 2571
07-22-17, 10:30 AM
Mike, I have to make one observation. I did before and some went nuts, but in my personal opinion, which is one of many, I do not like the look of the rolled up sleeves that they used to have.

advanced
07-22-17, 11:24 AM
Not to mention how many Uniform changes went on, I got the original issue of Khakis, Tropicals, Wool Greens and basic Utilities.

The we got over 4 different kinds of cammies as they progressed, woodland be the most dominant, then the boos and covers changed, went to Summer and winter green uniforms..

Green t-shirts finally came about after much hand wringing, please, we wear cammo and still wore white t's... lol
We wore white and green t-shirts back in the Nam in 68. We also went from solid green jungle utes to camy's during that time, but still mostly solid green.

FoxtrotOscar
07-22-17, 03:27 PM
What I'm really curious about is what do they do these days when out in the field with laptops, cell phones, Ipads, etc...

I was watching a documentary on the Mountain Warfare Center and saw that they even allow a portable PX for pogey bait/geedunk...

USMC 2571
07-22-17, 03:39 PM
Quite different from the old days.

The Skipper
07-22-17, 11:25 PM
Most Marines bring their phones and use them until they die. I bring a battery charger to the field with me (about 5 cubic inches big) to recharge and keep in touch with the &quot;real world&quot; at night. <br />
...

advanced
07-23-17, 07:21 AM
In the Arizona we only had the Dairy Queen Chopper that would come in. But it was only every other day. Obviously everything has changed drastically.

Capt, is it true that Marines on patrol come into the wire every night, we'd be out in the bush for 3-4 weeks most of the time.

Mongoose
07-23-17, 07:37 AM
Russ, after we went to 1st. Div.....we didn't have a rear area. As support Bn. for all the 1st. Div.....we stayed in the bush all the time. The little bit of rest time we had, was when we were staging for a new operation. At least it was this way while I was there. I also heard that Marines were in the wire at night in Afgan. Also heard they had a chow hall and showers to use.

The Skipper
07-23-17, 07:53 AM
Everyone's experience is going to be different. Patrols don't come in at night, but for most it's a few days out and then back in, but the mission has changed. We aren't trying to take and hold ground like in wars past. That's the easy part since our enemy is so much smaller. Patrols normally just maintain a presence around a village or keep an eye on road we think could be vulnerable to IEDs.

My last boss spent 7 months away from the FOBs, got frocked to Capt by Mattis after his Co Cmdr was KIA and left Iraq with a BSV and PH. I on the other hand spend the lions' share of my time on cushy FOBs, only getting out for a few weeks to training sites in Northern Iraq. There are showers, etc on large FOBs like Leatherneck, but small FOBs are whatever the unit makes of them. Might have a prison gym, but probably not a whole lot more.

Most Marines (I expect this has always been true) will play up their experiences. A few years ago, CARs were given to entire Regiments if they took a single round of IDF -- One was just given to all the Marines on a ship that got show at a few months ago. If you're field grade and deploy for a year, you can pretty much expect a bronze star. I'm pretty open with the fact that the living conditions of wars today are not as spartan as past wars. We're far more lethal today than we have ever been, but for your average Marine, the living conditions are much better than in the past.

USMC 2571
07-23-17, 08:03 AM
See, this is exactly what I envisioned when I started this thread.....very very interesting information, routine to the one's who are posting, but really interesting in that I (and others) would have no way of ever knowing about how the Corps is or was, except for my OWN experiences 1963 to 1967.

And even those experiences were not typical of the Corps, as I was on a small Navy base in the Caribbean on a listening post for 2 of the 4 years I was in, plus 6 months at a Navy school way before that. Only one year at Camp Lejeune. So my experiences were hardly typical. Some guys were stationed at Lejeune for four years.

So of all the threads I ever started, this is one of my favorites.

USMC 2571
07-23-17, 08:12 AM
As previously stated, one of the huge differences between my era and now is the present day ability to choose the MOS field. This was unheard of way back when. And it was probably better that way. Read Ask A Marine posts and witness the anxiety and fixation on what jobs they will end up getting, and how this or that MOS compares to others etc etc. I know, planning....planning is the key to it, but the Corps ran fine without that kind of future planning. Everything still got done, missions were still accomplished without making a big deal out of what MOS one would get. This is one of my few pet peeves nowadays. But I never ran the Corps, and never will. Just my opinions here, e pluribus unum opinions at that.

USMC 2571
07-23-17, 08:17 AM
Another thing I found unusual, but again, who am I to argue with USMC policy? I have nothing to do with it, and it doesn't affect me in the least. But I still found it unusual. And in various sections of this forum, not often, but sometimes, I've seen it discussed. I've even received a few PMs inquiring about it, and I am the last person they would expect a helpful answer from.....it is this-----In my era, we finished boot camp and immediately went to ITR, Infantry Training Regiment, advanced infantry training, at Camp Geiger, as you know, part of Lejeune.

Nowadays, they graduate from boot camp and go home, THEN go to MCT. I have had more than one person PM me saying What Should I do, I am losing, or will be losing motivation while at home, I finished boot camp and while I was still revved up, they sent me home on leave, THEN I have to go and do MCT straight from my home. Do you think I will end up getting my motivation back in time for MCT???

USMC 2571
07-23-17, 08:20 AM
So, in other words, the momentum of boot camp is lost, and the Marine must psyche himself or herself up all over again and report to MCT, whereas had they gone straight from boot camp like we did in the old days, that motivation would still be there. There would be no way to lose it that quickly. But, this is just an observation of mine. Maybe it's a great idea to have leave between boot camp and MCT, but the two or three PMs I received about it didn't portray it in that light.

USMC 2571
07-23-17, 08:22 AM
What else? Equipment. It is far superior to what we had. I have seen photos, in Leatherneck Magazine, and Billy (Mongoose) has also, of present-day Marines in combat gear and I hardly recognized them as Marines, they were so well equipped with all the latest technological gear. We were indeed bare-bones so to speak, in our day. So this equipment improvement and technology is really something to see.

USMC 2571
07-23-17, 08:26 AM
Open squad bays at Lejeune. A thing of the past, I think, or shortly to become one. Nowadays they have rooms. We had cubicles on that small Navy base I mentioned. Three to a cubicle, a lot better than the open squad bay at Comm Co, Hq Bn, 2nd Mar Div. But I think open squad bays are fading out fast, from what I hear. Maybe there are none left.

advanced
07-23-17, 08:43 AM
At Lejeune we lived in open squad bays, when I became an MP we had cubicles with 8 to a cube. I also realize that many Marines over state their combat experience, however, at many of the places that I was at my posts have tended to minimized those experiences as even most Marines would not believe the real experience.

As Billy and FistFu were with me at the Hook at Meade River in the Dodge City area they will also attest that we all have minimized those experiences. An unbelievable reality is most definitely hard to believe. Just saying.

USMC 2571
07-23-17, 08:47 AM
I can definitely see, over the years, all three of you downplaying/minimizing what actually happened over there.

Mongoose
07-23-17, 04:47 PM
The Corps top Brass and NCO's, dubbed the battle at the Hook, as the Iwo Jima of Viet Nam.

The Skipper
07-23-17, 05:29 PM
BEQs: They were segregated by gender until about 10 years ago. Now they're only segregated at the room level instead of the building level. Yes, we have many claims of sexual assault/harassment/EO offense that originate from the "bricks" now.

Gear: The weight of our equipment and gear keeps increasing. No one likes wearing their kit, but the survivability of the individual Marine has increased dramatically compared to past wars.

Post Bootcamp: Everyone gets about a week of boot leave to go home and brag to the poolies, see mom, etc. It helps the Marine by giving him time to take care of personal stuff, marry his high school sweetheart, get a moto tattoo, etc. It helps the Marine Corps by keeping the poolies motivated, thinking "that will be me in 13 weeks". Then grunts go to SOI and POGs go to MCT. I'm not a prior and haven't done either, but I'm told they aren't that different. We had a handful of females attempt and complete SOI about a year ago. TBH, I am not sure why we changed from sending everyone through SOI. MCT costs less maybe?

advanced
07-23-17, 05:57 PM
Grunts go through much more intense training, it is not the same. Also grunts continue the training over and over again. We learned a lot.

Mongoose
07-24-17, 07:36 AM
Also we were indoctrinated into the concept that on the job training, was part of our training. In other words, we could not even whisper, I wasn't trained for that shet. We were always either exercising our talent or learning a new talent. Made no difference if it was in the mist of combat.