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Rocky C
06-16-16, 02:59 PM
MARINE CORPS BASE QUANTICO, Va. — The Marine Corps is requiring that all leathernecks complete two days of training on the service's gender-integration plan as women take on new roles in ground combat units.

All active-duty Marines will complete the 16-hour training by Oct. 31, said Lt. Col. Larry Coleman, integration branch head with Manpower Plans and Policies. Reservists must finish the training by Jan. 31.

The two-day sessions will include discussions about new gender-neutral physical standards for certain military occupational specialties, why some units were closed to women and how the Marine Corps' gender-integration plan will work, Coleman told Marine Corps Times on Wednesday.


“Then we start talking about the plan itself: Here are the phases of the plan,” he said. “We break it down and go into detail of each phase. So it’s a good 90 minutes to two hours just talking about the plan and how we got to where we are.”

Not all Marines understand why combat jobs were once closed to women, Coleman said, so they're taking steps to explain when and why the recently lifted ban was in place.

“We weren’t really treating them differently because they were females; we were treating them different because it’s what the law or policy said we had to do,” he said.


The trainers will also address questions or misconceptions Marines have about gender-neutral physical standards. Those rules were developed by Training and Education Command before the Marine Corps began its gender-integration research, Coleman said.

Battalion commanders can determine how to conduct the training, but service leaders recommend that trainers meet with between 10 and 20 Marines at a time for guided discussions, he said.

The training is for everyone, in part to allow Marines who have served in units with women to share their insight with their colleagues, Coleman said.

“They’re passing on best practices from a gunny to a gunny, or from a first sergeant to a major, to say: ‘Hey, we had that same problem two years ago and here’s what we did that worked’ — and even as important, ‘Here’s what we did that didn’t work,’” Coleman said.


Right now, Coleman said he is training the officers and staff noncommissioned officers who will facilitate these discussions. The trainers often ask him why the service is opening all combat jobs to women if mixed-gender teams did not perform as well as their all-male counterparts during the service's Ground Combat Element Integrated Task Force experiment.

“We tell them that, yes, the majority of the tasks they performed at a lower level; however, their performance was not unsatisfactory,” Coleman said. “Their performance and the attacks that they executed were not failures. They just were potentially slower, maybe it was less accurate – whatever the metric that was being used for that particular task.

"It may have been a little bit off from what the males were, but they were still meeting what we have in our training readiness manuals as the standards.”


One aspect of the training looks at how Marines form biases, but Coleman made clear it will not be a discussion about Marines’ feelings.

“Everyone has bias,” Coleman said. “It’s part of the way you were raised; it is part of your life experiences. You have biases that exist in you. The thing we’re trying to tell them is: A bias, again, is not necessarily a bad thing to have. Sometimes it’s what keeps you alive in certain scenarios and in certain contexts.”


In March, Marine Corps officials said the training would include discussions on Marines’ “unconscious bias,” but a Corps spokesman said later, “This is not sensitivity training.”

The subject of unconscious bias is a “very minimal” part of the planned discussions on how Marines think, act and make decisions, Coleman said. Marines are asked if they associate words like “deployment” with military or family life so they can see that not everyone thinks the same way.

“They start to realize that: ‘OK, I do see things a little bit differently,’” Coleman said. “Then we start to roll into … 'This is how your biases are formed; this is how the way you think is formed.' Bias is a way you think. It’s just identifying that."

Tennessee Top
06-16-16, 03:34 PM
"This is not sensitivity training". Raise your hand if you believe that for one minute.

Kegler300
06-16-16, 04:35 PM
16-hours of training??? You have got to be kidding.

chulaivet1966
06-16-16, 04:42 PM
"This is not sensitivity training". Raise your hand if you believe that for one minute.

I've not moved a muscle for fear of being accused of 'raising my hand'.

In the context of this thread I have no words (that I would express on any open forums) for all that's occurring in the USMC and other services.
I'm not pleased with any of it.
But...that's just me, I'm probably in the minority with my views.

Hence....I've been off the grid here for a while but still lurk every day over morning mud.

Hope all are doing well.
SF....carry on....

FoxtrotOscar
06-16-16, 04:57 PM
In the context of this thread I have no words (that I would express on any open forums) for all that's occurring in the USMC and other services.
I'm not pleased with any of it.
But...that's just me, I'm probably in the minority with my views.
SF....carry on....

I'll agree with you opinion Chulai, and I really don't think your views are in the minority at all...

FO

m14ed
06-17-16, 02:26 AM
I'll agree with you opinion Chulai, and I really don't think your views are in the minority at all...

FO


I feel just "So-Cuddley"
you wanna take a vote for a
"Group HUG"
?

thegimprider
06-17-16, 11:03 AM
Jar heads are so slow it will take us 2 days to learn how to leave the toilet seat up

Blutic
06-17-16, 12:54 PM
You guys have it all WRONG. I've actually attended the training. The Marine Corps has moved to a standards based approach to assigning Marines (male and female) to units. This whole thing has resulted in an IMPROVED Marine Corps. The standards across the board have been raised from shipping to boot camp, to graduation, to assignment to MOSs, and assignments to units - for both genders. There are certain physical tasks every Marine has to complete to be assigned a certain MOS and to certain units. For example, to be an 03xx both sexes must be able to lift a MK19 over their heads. To be a motor T bubba you have to deadlift a certain amount to simulate a tow bar. The Corps looked at all the MOSs and determined what are critical and common tasks for each and developed tests accordingly. So if a male or female sign up for combat engineer, infanty, etc and cant pass the test at the end of MOS school they get reassigned.

Blutic
06-17-16, 12:57 PM
There are several physical tasks that must be accomplished in order to go to MOS school, more demanding tasks are required to graduate, and there are even more required to go to a load bearing unit such as a recon Bn. The Corps has essentially made it so both genders have an equal opportunity to serve in any MOS in any unit but you have to pass the physical test to get it. I suggest doing some more research before bad mouthing my Corps! :)

advanced
06-17-16, 01:29 PM
No offense, but I believe it was our Corps 1st, matter of fact, not opinion. I'd suggest that you use your inside voice, after all this is the day of the kinder, gentler, MC. Just saying.<script type="text/javascript" src="safari-extension://com.ebay.safari.myebaymanager-QYHMMGCMJR/7fca20b6/background/helpers/prefilterHelper.js"></script>

Blutic
06-17-16, 01:45 PM
I don't have time to be offended because I'm packing my seabag to head back to Afghanistan. I've been a Marine for over 20 years and seen many improvements over that time. This is one of them.

Rocky C
06-17-16, 01:51 PM
Woody !!! Good to see you post Sir. You have been missed. Lost my job as Forum Administrator here today but seeing you post the truth in my thread made be feel better.

Watch you 6 over there Brother.

Semper Fi,
Rocky

Blutic
06-17-16, 01:55 PM
Thanks I certainly will. I read posts pretty regularly but don't post much.

Rocky C
06-17-16, 02:05 PM
A lot do the same as you. Good to see you.

oldtop
06-17-16, 02:14 PM
OK, so do these NEW standards mean that ALL MARINES take the EXACT SAME PFT, with the exact same pass/fail requirements??? or do the ladies still get a break and only have to do half a run and hang from the pull up bar instead of doing real pull ups??? I have no problem with the "standards approach" to assigning an MOS, but IMHO, the BASIC STANDARDS need to be the same to start with...

Blutic
06-17-16, 03:23 PM
The PFT/CFT scoring system is being revamped also for men/women and old/young. However, the scoring will still be gender-normed meaning women can do less pullups and run slower and still score higher (just like old dudes) however the point gap has been made tighter.

Kegler300
06-17-16, 04:35 PM
I'm so glad I'm retired and don't have to put up with this crap.

Tennessee Top
06-17-16, 09:59 PM
Don't believe I could deal with it. So glad I don't have to also.

Wonder if fitness reports still include a mark for "military bearing"? If a superior witnesses two subordinate males holding hands and kissing (in civilian attire). What happens if they mark them as "unsatisfactory" for military bearing (as I would)? I imagine, the superior would be sent for some remedial sensitivity training - and made to rewrite the fitness reports as that would be considered discrimination. These are the types of things I could not deal with.

Marines are required to maintain their military bearing 24/7. Not just while in uniform or on duty. At least, that's what I expected of my Marines.

advanced
06-18-16, 08:52 AM
So the MC today is very equal, it's just that some seem to be more equal than others. bluetic, you may like the changes that you've seen in the last 20 years, but i personally see these changes as being quite unequal. PC training for Marine Infantry is total bs, lowering the standards to be accepted for MC Infantry is a total joke and will result in the loss of Marines. I guess that's acceptable to many of you though as long as it furthers the pc agenda.

I know that my view is tainted compared to today's standards, you see back in the day the MC Infantry was feared as we were the nation's shock troops. No room for pc bs fulfilling that role. Of course you may disagree. What is your mos? You ever spent 3-4 weeks in Indian Country with little re-supply? How many women could hold up to that? Just saying.

thegimprider
06-18-16, 10:26 AM
Men will always be men and women will always be women with all the conflicts intact between those sexes. Sex is an instinct stronger than survival and woman who know that can lead a man by the short hairs. Watch "Ran" by Kurosawa a potent film of war. Training and orders will not withstand those problems.
Mash had some prophetic moments with Major Hotpants

Blutic
06-18-16, 07:02 PM
This training was developed so Marines will understand that standards have not been lowered so women can integrate into combat arms MOSs. The standards have been RAISED for everyone.

madsox
06-18-16, 08:08 PM
Check posts 8 and 9, those look like good changes to me from my "old guy on the bench" view. I'll take the Major's word on this stuff, he's a Mustang with 20 years in, and even as "just a Reservist" (that was me all my way through, sir) he's had several tours in line units, if I'm reading that profile right.

So, new Corps, some things different Corps, but it's still our Corps and I'll bet the PC part of shiat will settle out and we'll end up with a better Corps for it. Not the same as when I started, definitely not the same as when Nam was hot, but things change.

Good to meet ya, Major, and let me know if you head down Maryland-way some time, I'm not too far from you.

Debate is good, though - don't stop arguing or we won't know who the real Jarheads are around here! 8-)

S/F, all

Tennessee Top
06-19-16, 03:52 PM
Nobody here today can predict if these liberal changes are good or bad for our Corps. History will record that score - and our enemies will have a vote.

My biggest gripes are. We never asked for these changes to begin with - in fact, our former Commandant disagrees with them. And, these changes are being mandated (for the most part) by beaurocrats who have never worn a uniform - let alone confronted an enemy on the battlefield. How they can believe they actually know better than combat veterans simply blows my mind (and something I'll never understand). That they refuse to accept the recommendations of our combat decorated leaders is both a disgrace and an insult in my professional opinion. Maybe they should ask DI's how they feel about letting recruits run bootcamp. When the DI's say "that's crazy", give the order that recruits will now run both recruit depots - effective immediately. What do the DI's know about it anyways.

thegimprider
06-19-16, 11:16 PM
I'm the only Marine in my family generation, my uncle served from 1941 to 1971, much time on rifle range. My 6 years affected one niece and nephew who joined. My niece in Navy Sea Bees because she wanted to be an architect my nephew AirForce because he threw up at the sight of a ship. My niece served during Kosovo and went through hell. Back in States she was raped and the Navy blamed her. At next duty station they shipped her rapist to same duty station until they forced her out. A woman in a mans world will come up against some heavy opposition.
Women in power tend to over push to make up for this. Cross security check some time and you will see a woman stops more cars than male counter part. We used to look at US border crossing for female customs and find a male guards line to avoid that. I agree with their rights but it is a can of worms and trouble will come from it.

oldtop
06-20-16, 09:16 AM
IMHO, the "politically correct, pro-diversity" bunch that is currently running the country does not care one whit about the "fall out" within the military due to their actions... they just "throw it against the wall, and see what sticks"... a foolish approach to running and improving our military, if you ask me... some things may work out, some will fail... but these clowns best have a "plan B" just in case....

FoxtrotOscar
06-20-16, 07:12 PM
1.

Old Marine
06-20-16, 08:14 PM
Won't be long before prospects will be taking Recruit Training over their computer. Really happy I retired 43 years ago and can now read about all the PC crap that is in the Military today. I have returned a few times to MCRD, SD and also worked on the base for 13 years after I retired. It was very easy to see the changes on graduation day when the Recruits had base liberty and their Drill Instructor was not watching them.

Kegler300
06-20-16, 08:22 PM
The Marine Corps is being wussified and gayed down by the idiot in the White House.