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View Full Version : Marines ditch iron sights, consider new marksmanship training tables



Rocky C
03-09-16, 07:50 AM
Marines will see changes in marksmanship and weapons gear this year, including the phasing out of legacy M16 iron sights and the three-point sling.

Marine officials announced annual changes to the Corps' combat marksmanship program last week based on recommendations from a gathering of key decision makers aboard Marine Corps Base Quantico, Virginia, last October.

The symposium's results were detailed in two Marine administrative messages, 112/16 and 113/16. The first spelled out how the service will streamline its marksmanship program. The second listed authorized weapons and gear for all Marines.

While the changes are not as dramatic as those from last year's symposium, they mark a continuation of the Corps' drive toward greater efficiency and lethality under the "every Marine a rifleman" mentality.


Here’s a look at the most-notable changes.

Weapons and gear

The Marine Corps will phase out the legacy iron sights, carrying handle and three-point sling for the M16 rifle.

While the iron sights and handles will still be authorized, the Marine Corps will gradually deplete its existing stocks through attrition.

The legacy iron sights will be replaced with micro backup iron sights, which are modular attachments that can be affixed to a rifle’s rail mount and flipped up for use.

But the Corps will still need to train Marines to use iron sights in fundamental marksmanship should the rifle combat optic’s red dot go dead, said Kyle Lamb, a weapons consultant through his company Viking Tactics who retired from the Army’s Delta Force.

“It’s sad to see the iron sights go,” he said. “The Marine Corps takes marksmanship seriously. If you need [the micro iron sights], you need them; just flip them up and you’re good to go.”

The three-point rifle sling will also still be authorized, but will fall out from inventories in favor of a two-point common weapons sling.

The two-point sling allows greater flexibility to shooters, doubling as a firing aid and carrying strap, said Lamb, who supplies them to Marine Corps Forces Special Operations Command via his company.

“It’s something the services have needed to do across the board for years,” he said. “The three-point sling doesn’t have any ability against the body, to tighten while wearing or shooting prone.”

Additional authorized gear includes:


•M7 Rifle Combat Optic with horseshoe dot reticle pattern for the M16A4 and M4 rifles
•Special Operations Peculiar Modification, or SOPMOD, buttstock assembly for the M16A4, M4, M4A1 and M27 rifles
•M9A1 pistol holsters with light for left- and right-handed shooters

On the range

Another big potential change to come out of the marksmanship symposium is a request for the Corps to take a look at converting firing ranges from yards to meters.

According to MARADMIN 112/16, Marine Corps Combat Development and Integration directed Training Command to conduct a cost-benefit analysis of converting known distance ranges to the global measuring standard.

Lamb doesn’t see this as a bad thing.

“If you train to think in meters, you’re able to be ahead of the ballgame,” he said. “Marines may be shooting in yards, but everything in the Corps is already in meters.”

Marines already think in terms of "klicks," he said, so the conversion might ultimately streamline how they think about distance.

Combat rifle and pistol marksmanship program

Officials at CD&I also asked Weapons Training Battalion to look at developing a new training table for the Marine Corps’ marksmanship program.


Marine Corps revises rifle marksmanship training tables


Table seven would set the standard for engaging moving threats, both during live-fire training and in simulations.

Details have yet to be announced but if adopted, it would follow sweeping changes made to Marines’ rifle marksmanship training tables over the last year.

A Corps-wide message issued last March merged eight skills tables into four to create six specific courses of fire.

Swampyankee
03-09-16, 08:58 AM
If they recalled me I'd have to go through boot again to learn all the gear.
I think it's a mistake to put all our trust in technology.

irpat54
03-09-16, 09:04 AM
If they recalled me I'd have to go through boot again to learn all the gear.
I think it's a mistake to put all our trust in technology.

I agree 100%,, all of this new BS is, IMO, a path to the Army type of Marine Corps.... :mad:

MunkyVsRobot
03-09-16, 03:52 PM
Um.. They got rid of Iron sights in 2012 I noticed them filtering them out while i was at boot camp. Also recently as of last year or so they did away with the loop sling. You can only use a three point or vickers sling. Most issued weapons dont even come with a BUIS

Tennessee Top
03-09-16, 07:31 PM
Like everything else these days, there is a link in all these changes to gender equity somewhere. They won't identify it publicly, but you can bet those officials at CD&I looked at gender equity issues before approving any changes in marksmanship/weapons standards. Anything that could even remotely jeopardize gender equity in the USMC today is a nonstarter - the SECNAV sees to that personally.

SGT7477
03-10-16, 07:05 AM
What if the optics break no iron sights to fall back on, looks like todays Marine Corps is going the army way like Pat says, we had no such things as optics in my time, looks like the easy way out, Semper Fidelis.

irpat54
03-10-16, 07:29 AM
well with "red dot" I hope they take extra batteries with them..

Swampyankee
03-10-16, 09:11 AM
It's like the rest of this society, the dependance on technology has us on the edge of a major malfunction, nationaly speaking. One good power failure, the type obama is working towards, and that's it, no gas, no food, no nothing. Computers need mucho electronos. If that happens I feel bad for those with kids in the house, I hear withdrawal from the internet can be rough.
One reason the American military was successful in times past was because the transition from civilian sights to military sights was a non-issue. Are these new sights going to be on the open market at a non-prohibitive cost?

Top is right as well. I heard a few years back that Ranger school had dropped it standards with an eye to getting females. And now Col. West said that the records of those females who just graduated can't be found.
Big social experiment is producing a frankenstein monster.
But then there's the generation gap thing I suppose. To the WW 1 vet the Marines of my era looked a tad strange with flak vests and portable machine guns.
Just some musing of an old man.

advanced
03-10-16, 09:15 AM
All this talk about sights isn't really that big of a deal. We did much of our shooting holding our weapons over our heads firing from behind a wall or on assaults we used the classic hip firing position. I actually like the red dot for close range.

Swampyankee
03-10-16, 09:25 AM
But you can use the basic of tools to get the job done, the only reliance you have on the red dot is because your eyes aren't what they use to be, right?;)
I've never tied any of those things so I guess I'm biased.

advanced
03-10-16, 09:47 AM
You had to mention my eyes, yes, today I like the red dot with the 12" diameter at 50 yards.

Swampyankee
03-10-16, 02:12 PM
Ah, but you can still ride a bike. I'm envious.

Tennessee Top
03-10-16, 04:47 PM
The thing that really kicks my a$$ is, we're in a battle with 17th century throwbacks! They have no technology on their side except for the ability to hack into the internet. No satellites, no Navy, no Air Force, no Special Ops, no armor, no artillery. The only effective weapon systems they employ are IED's and suicide bombers.

So. The obvious questions are. If we can't defeat a 17th century army. WTF will we do against a 21st century one? Do we even stand a chance?

SGT7477
03-10-16, 05:54 PM
You got that right Top, Semper Fidelis.

MunkyVsRobot
03-10-16, 07:29 PM
well they beat back the soviets with the same stuff before, but what doesnt help us is we are playing by different sets of rules.

Mongoose
03-11-16, 08:00 AM
In Nam I didn't need any sights.....my M-60 and good old Kentucky windage was more than effective. I shot so many gooks in the back trying to get away , I was astonished I wasn't tried for war crimes.http://www.leatherneck.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=29706&stc=1

SGT7477
03-11-16, 08:40 AM
Thumbs up Billy, Semper Fidelis.