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View Full Version : Marine Corps Debate Over Women In Combat Continues To Roil This Morning.



Rocky C
01-09-16, 08:53 AM
9:41 a.m. EST January 9, 2016


WASHINGTON — A top Marine general predicted Friday that the Defense Department's vows to maintain the same standards for women and men in combat jobs won't last, saying the military will eventually be pressured to lower the qualifications so more women can serve in jobs like the Marine infantry.

The public comments by Gen. John Kelly, head of U.S. Southern Command, underscored how strongly the Marines oppose Defense Secretary Ash Carter's order to fully integrate women into all combat jobs, including the Marine Corps and special operations forces like Navy SEALs and Army Green Berets. A new, high-level disagreement is erupting over whether the Marine Corps must also fully integrate its 12-week recruit training program at Parris Island in South Carolina.

"They're saying we are not going to change any standards," Kelly told reporters at the Pentagon. "There will be great pressure, whether it's 12 months from now, four years from now, because the question will be asked whether we've let women into these other roles, why aren't they staying in those other roles? Why aren't they advancing as infantry people?"


Kelly, who has been a Marine for 45 years and served three tours in Iraq, said the sole basis for change in the military should be whether the change will make units more lethal.

"If the answer to that is no, clearly don't do it. If the answer to that is, it shouldn't hurt, I would suggest that we shouldn't do it, because it might hurt," Kelly said.

Carter in December ordered all combat jobs open to women, but also vowed that no standards would be lowered to make way for women.

The Marine Corps initially sought to keep certain infantry and combat jobs closed to women, citing studies showing combined-gender units are not as effective as male-only units, but they were rebuffed.

Marine Corps boot camp, job titles to be gender neutral by April.


Carter's December ruling said the military services should integrate women into combat jobs "using their existing recruiting, accession, training and assignment procedures."

But on Jan. 1, Navy Secretary Ray Mabus told the Marines he wanted a plan by Jan. 15 for how the Marines would fully integrate their recruit training. And he said he wanted the integration to begin no later than April 1.

A spokesman for Marine Commandant Gen. Robert Neller, Lt. Col. Eric Dent, said Mabus' memo is being reviewed. But officials familiar with the events said an irate Neller wants a one-on-one meeting with Carter to discuss the matter. They said Marine leaders don't want women and men training together and want to determine the implications of the change before doing anything. The officials spoke on anonymity because they were unauthorized to speak publicly about Neller's plans.


Under the current system, women who enlist in the Marine Corps go to Parris Island for their initial three months of recruit training and are assigned to one battalion. Men training there are assigned to three other battalions.

The Marine Corps says this gives women time to do early training and study with female drill instructors who can serve as role models, help them build confidence and develop the physical and other skills needed to progress. Marine leaders argue that the separation also minimizes distractions and harassment issues, while also better preparing the women to compete as they move into the next two levels of integrated training with men.

The other three services, however, do not separate women from men in basic training, although it is not unusual to have all-male platoons or battalions in training because there often aren't enough women to populate all the units. Men and women have separate living quarters.

After the recruit training, the men and women go through Marine combat training together. They then move on to their formal training for their specific jobs, which also is integrated.

In a second memo, which was obtained by The Associated Press, Mabus also warned Marine Corps leaders not to use any concerns about integrating women into combat jobs as ways to delay the process.

In its implementation plan submitted last month, the Marine Corps noted it would be reviewing and monitoring combat readiness, morale, incidents of sexual assault or harassment and other effects as the integration of women into combat jobs goes on.

Mabus told Neller in the memo that he expects the Marine Corps will monitor those issues in order to measure progress and aid education, "rather than as a justification to hinder or halt this policy."

He also asked the Marines to go through their job titles and make them as gender-neutral as possible. While that would not likely involve changes to every title — the Air Force has routinely used "airmen" to refer to its forces regardless of gender — it could change a title such as "reconnaissance man" to "reconnaissance Marine."

USMC 2571
01-09-16, 08:55 AM
Change for the sake of change. What matters is that things in fact get changed. Nothing else is of any consequence at all. This way we can appear to always be "moving forward" aka "progress".

Rocky C
01-09-16, 09:03 AM
Does this mean that stalls and doors will be installed in the ****ters now too ?
Where will the Tampoon machine be located ?
Coed showers too ?

THIS IS NOT THE MARINE CORPS BOOT CAMP I KNOW !!! :evilgrin:

USMC 2571
01-09-16, 09:05 AM
No one seems to care at all about what effects these changes will have. The crucial thing is that we appear to be doing something. It's like "make work" around the house or yard, when everything is fine, but we go around mowing the grass again that was mowed two days ago. Same mentality. Just my opinion.

Old Marine
01-09-16, 09:30 AM
Does this mean that stalls and doors will be installed in the ****ters now too ?
Where will the Tampoon machine be located ?
Coed showers too ?

THIS IS NOT THE MARINE CORPS BOOT CAMP I KNOW !!! :evilgrin:

Boot Camp of today is not the one you know.

USMC 2571
01-09-16, 10:01 AM
Not by a longshot, Willie.

Tennessee Top
01-09-16, 10:23 AM
Look for General Kelly to be retiring in the near future.

I caught all kinds of grief here recently for making the comment being a Marine today is not all it's cracked up to be. I stand by that statement. May as well start issuing recruits berets (along with the turbans). If this stuff keeps up, our military will be laughed off the battlefield (IF it ever sets foot on a battlefield again).

chulaivet1966
01-09-16, 11:10 AM
I caught all kinds of grief here recently....

Well....
I've been reading these women in combat threads so guess I'll volunteer to take some grief too.

IMO....
No women in direct/close ground combat.
No integrated training battalions.
No bending to PC bvll shvt demands.

All this shvt I see evolving makes me sick.

OK...that's my (after (3) cups of mud) take on it all.

Send me to banned camp if you must.

Do carry on....

Rocky C
01-09-16, 11:20 AM
Well said Wayne.

I think everyone on my thread is in total agreement brother.

What Top was referring to was on a thread post to a Poolee in the " Ask a Marine " Forum.

chulaivet1966
01-09-16, 11:42 AM
Well said Wayne. I think everyone on my thread is in total agreement brother. What Top was referring to was on a thread post to a Poolee in the " Ask a Marine " Forum.

I missed that.

WHOA...are you saying I'm NOT sent to RUTB (recalcitrant uncooperative training battalion)?
Cool!

"I'll be bock"...

Mongoose
01-09-16, 04:49 PM
Well said Wayne.

I think everyone on my thread is in total agreement brother.

What Top was referring to was on a thread post to a Poolee in the " Ask a Marine " Forum.
Rocky, I think women should have a role in reguard to combat roles. In the days of Gladiators, the winners were rewarded with women and wine. I think this would be a great incentive in todays Military. Of course in todays Military, you would have a choice of woman or man or .better still a man who thinks he's a woman.

irpat54
01-09-16, 06:11 PM
this administration will stop at nothing to bring down every aspect of the United States, Obama hates the U.S. and will do what he can to take us down a couple notches,,

Tennessee Top
01-09-16, 09:24 PM
Nobody around to stop him - or even slow him down. We just keep bending over and assuming the position.

Rocky C
01-10-16, 08:52 AM
I missed that.

WHOA...are you saying I'm NOT sent to RUTB (recalcitrant uncooperative training battalion)?
Cool!

"I'll be bock"...



Hahahaha, that was great Wayne !!!

chulaivet1966
01-10-16, 10:02 AM
Hahahaha, that was great Wayne !!!

Reveille Rock....proud member of the RUTB checkin' in.

Just trying to keep my sense of humor given the serious subject matter. :)

Mas cafe para mi....later.

Rocky C
01-10-16, 10:39 AM
I wonder what news tomorrow will bring ???

chulaivet1966
01-10-16, 10:46 AM
I wonder what news tomorrow will bring ???

You're scaring me RC....and, at the current rate of PC progress, I'm confident it will be something quite unappealing to me. :)

Back to it....

Rocky C
01-10-16, 10:52 AM
LOl, Me too Wayne...

Stayed tuned...

Mongoose
01-11-16, 07:16 AM
I'm all for it. I have no issues with my manhood. I wouldn't consider women in combat roles as a hit on my macho image. From experience, I know when you are engaged in direct combat, the last thing on your mind is what sex the Marine next to you is. Females are very capable of covering your back. Maybe they can't hump 90 lbs. for a long distance. So what, that is rare today anyway. As far as rapes go, as I have heard mentioned.....Grunts are very protective of their own. You wouldn't want to get caught sexually assaulting one of their own. Sure, Grunts may go out of their way to protect a female Marine......but what makes you think she wouldn't do the same for them. No one is any more vicious than a female with a rifle fighting for her and your life. So, I don't view it as a threat to Marines manhood or image. If they get there, it's because they fought for it and earned it. If they have the guts and mentality to be infantry, that's good enough for me.

USMC 2571
01-11-16, 07:52 AM
Agreed, Billy---old beliefs die very hard, though.

irpat54
01-11-16, 08:57 AM
I'm all for it. I have no issues with my manhood. I wouldn't consider women in combat roles as a hit on my macho image. From experience, I know when you are engaged in direct combat, the last thing on your mind is what sex the Marine next to you is. Females are very capable of covering your back. Maybe they can't hump 90 lbs. for a long distance. So what, that is rare today anyway. As far as rapes go, as I have heard mentioned.....Grunts are very protective of their own. You wouldn't want to get caught sexually assaulting one of their own. Sure, Grunts may go out of their way to protect a female Marine......but what makes you think she wouldn't do the same for them. No one is any more vicious than a female with a rifle fighting for her and your life. So, I don't view it as a threat to Marines manhood or image. If they get there, it's because they fought for it and earned it. If they have the guts and mentality to be infantry, that's good enough for me.
as long as they do not lower the standards, the study that the Marine Corps did thought, showed that integrated combat teams faired much worse in the combat course.. and that is my problem why risk more lives just to be stylish..

Mongoose
01-11-16, 07:30 PM
Pat, the Corps has been getting more lax every year that passes by. I don't think it's a great ideal either, however, I don't think we should make it harder for all concerned, by looking at it with a closed mind and a negative attitude. The Government is going to make it work no matter what anyone thinks or what they have to do to make it happen. My thought is that by going into this with a bad attitude, will magnify the problems that will arise and cause undo friction, when there is nothing we can do.

silverdollar
01-12-16, 06:48 AM
Just wait until Hitlery is president, all uniforms will change to pantsuits.

irpat54
01-12-16, 07:04 AM
that would be a disaster if Billery got to be president,, a big fight would be happening for sure

Rocky C
01-12-16, 08:30 AM
Just wait until Hitlery is president, all uniforms will change to pantsuits.

Now that was funny :)