Rethinking the Anti-GI Attitude

[thedrifter]

Rethinking the Anti-GI Attitude


Most former war protestors insist to this day that they were right in the stance they took. In recent years, however, many have come to rethink and even regret the virulently anti-GI attitude that went with that stance more than 30 years ago. Why do think this is?


Sempers,

Roger
:marine:

[firstsgtmike]

The "I-missed- Vietnam" Guilt By Bob Greene

"The day I turned 19, I went down for my physical and had my first and only experience of Army life. I took with me a letter from Dr. Murphy, my childhood doctor, describing in uncompromising detail the asthma that had been a major part of my life up to 16."

Thus begins a article by Christopher Buckley in the September issue of Esquire magazine - an article that should spur millions of members of a generation of American men to question a part of their lives that they had thought they put behind them long ago.

Buckley - the son of conservative columnist William F. Buckley Jr. - describes in the article how he had received a medical deferment from the Army, and thus how he had escaped going to Vietnam. The article is titled "Viet Guilt, " and it addresses itself to those millions of young American men who did not go to Vietnam - and who are beginning to realize, all these years later, that by not going they may have proved something about their own lack of courage - their own, lack of manhood, if you will - that ought to make them very uncomfortable.

Enough words have been devoted to the moral issues of the war. The point that Chris Buckley makes is that, if the truth were really to be told, most of the men who managed to stay home from Vietnam did not do so for reasons of morality alone. Their real reason for not going was that they did not want to die, did not want to get shot at. And they found out that there were many ways to avoid Vietnam.

Young men of my generation got out of Vietnam because of college deferments, because of medical deferments, because of having a "lucky" number in the Selective Service birthday lottery that was initiated toward the end of the war. Three million men of fighting age went to Indochina during the Vietnam War; 16 million men of fighting age did not. Buckley was one of the men who did not - and I was, too. Reading his article made me realize the truth of the emotions I have been feeling lately about that particular subject. I sense a strong feeling - "shame" is not too strong a word - among many men who did not go to Vietnam, and perhaps now is the time to bring that feeling out into the open. Those of us who did not go may have pretended that we held some moral superiority over those who did, but we must have known - even back then - that that was largely sham. A tiny, tiny minority served jail terms - the rest of us avoided the war through easier methods. The men who went to Vietnam were no more involved with the politics of the war than we were. They were different from us in only two important ways: They hadn't figured out a successful way to get out of going, and they had a certain courage that we lacked.

Not "courage" as defined the way we liked to define it; not "courage" in the sense of opposing the government's policies in Vietnam. But courage in an awful, day-to-day sense; courage in being willing to be over there while most of their generation stayed home. When I meet men my age who are Vietnam veterans, I find myself reacting the same way that Chris Buckley indicates he does. I find myself automatically feeling a little lacking. "I have friends who served in Vietnam..." Buckley writes. "They all saw death up close every day, and many days dealt with it themselves." They're married, happy, secure, good at what they do; they don't have nightmares and they don't shoot up gas stations with M-16s. Each has a gentleness I find rare in most others, and beneath it a spiritual sinew that I ascribe to their experience in the war .I don't think I'll ever have what they have, the aura of " I have been weighed on the scales and have not been found wanting", and my sense at this point is that I will always feel the lack of it..."

I think many of us are just beginning to realize that. I know when I meet those men of my generation who did serve in Vietnam, I automatically feel less worthy than they are; yes, less of a man, if you want to use that phrase. Those of us who did not have to go to Vietnam may have felt, at the time, that we were getting away with something; may have felt, at the time, that we were the recipients of a particular piece of luck that had value beyond price. But now, I think, we realize that by not having had to go we lost forever the chance to learn certain things about ourselves that only men who have been in war together will ever truly know.

Our fathers learned those things in World War II; our sons, God forbid, may learn them in some future conflict. But we - those of us who did not go - managed to avoid something that would have helped form us into different people than we are now. Buckley writes "by not putting on uniforms, we forfeited what might have been the ultimate opportunity, in increasingly self-obsessed times, of making the ultimate commitment to something greater than ourselves, the survival of comrades."

But I think it may go even beyond that; I think it may go to the very definition of our manhood. I know that when I meet a man who, it turns out, has served in Vietnam, part of me wonders whether he is able to read my mind. I don't know how widespread this feeling is among men of my generation who didn't go; but I can testify that, at least for some of us, it's there, all right.

---------------------

[firstsgtmike]

I avoided the draft by taking a student deferment; what haunts me is that somebody took my place

By James Dannenberg NEWSWEEK

Feb. 18 issue — Funny how time and events can turn your world view upside down. Now that we are engaged in what most folks—me included—consider a “just war” in response to terrorist attacks, a war in which American men and women volunteer to put themselves in harm’s way, I am reminded of the not-so-subtle moral ambiguities my generation faced during the Vietnam War.

A FEW YEARS AGO my young son and I visited the Vietnam Veterans Memorial. When he asked whether I had fought in the war, I told him I had not. His question awakened a hundred hibernating arguments and rationalizations, but I felt incapable of telling him anything more, and he didn’t probe further.

I did not volunteer for military service during the Vietnam War, nor was I drafted. Although I was of prime service age and fit enough, I did what I could within the law to avoid service, taking advantage of student deferments until 1970, when I turned 26 and was considered too old for the draft. Had I been drafted I might have considered resistance or Canada, but in truth I never had to make any hard choices. I slipped by, and I’ve had flashes of guilt and self-doubt ever since.

When it comes to our personal histories, we’re all revisionists, struggling, usually unconsciously, to place our past in the best light, to see ourselves as virtuous. I have long been convinced of the rectitude of my opposition to the war. But as the passage of time brings greater objectivity, I have become more critical about my actions during that period.

Vietnam seemed a cruel misadventure to many then, as it still seems to me, and only through the thickest cold-war lenses could it be seen as a just war. Communities and generations clashed about its wisdom and morality. Eventually, however, as the body count rose, a majority of Americans from all ranks came to oppose it. Then it was over, and America moved on.

But even in the 21st century it is clear that some wounds have not completely healed. Some boys went to Vietnam, and some did not. And we all know who we are. Yet from the beginning I was dimly haunted by the notion that for each college boy we managed to “save,” there was always another kid from a less privileged background to take his place

My first work as a lawyer in 1969 was in draft law, a now obsolete but then politically correct specialty. Our little firm of young lawyers was successful in keeping lots of boys out of the draft, mainly by tying up the Selective Service with its own regulations. Yet from the beginning I was dimly haunted by the notion that for each college boy we managed to “save,” there was always another kid from a less privileged background to take his place. The Selective Service was like a giant shark on a perpetual feed: if it missed one fish, it would move on to the next.

So even back then our legal victories rang a little hollow to me. Certainly they struck no telling blows against the war effort. On reflection, they seem immoral and dishonorable, much like the payments Civil War draftees could make to avoid service. Small comfort that we were on the “correct” side, that we were against the war. Our smugness was akin to the romantic reminiscences of Spanish Civil War ideologues, parodied by humorist Tom Lehrer: they won all the battles, but we had all the good songs.

A few years ago I began to think about the fact that someone took my place, too. Maybe he was drafted and sent to Vietnam. Maybe he was traumatized in the way that many combat veterans are. Maybe he died.

Millions of my generation did go to Vietnam and serve honorably, but many middle-class, college-educated kids like me were effectively immune from service. Vietnam was an abstraction to us, albeit a powerful one. No doubt this shielded us from the kind of serious contemplation that seems appropriate even today, as we revere WWII vets and send troops to Afghanistan.

The real cost of the war was brought home to me recently, when I discovered that one of my own cousins had died in Vietnam. Richard Marks was only 19, a Marine Pfc, when he was killed in Quang Nam in 1966, at the same time that I was safely protected from harm by a graduate-student deferment. In a way I have come to look upon Richard as my metaphorical counterweight.

I make no apology for opposing the war and still admit to some nostalgia for the spirit of the ’60s, though I feel embarrassment for our ideological excesses. I only hope that I did not use my privilege to avoid military service out of cowardice, even as I admit to having been afraid.

No doubt about it: war is about killing and dying, and each generation must confront its own fear in answering the call. My father was awarded the Distinguished Service Cross, our nation’s second highest military honor, as a combat medic during World War II. Had I been in his shoes, I like to think that I, too, would have served.

But I’ll really never know, and talk is cheap. I survived the 1960s with a law degree and some guilt. Richard’s name is on the wall, along with 58,000 others.

Dannenberg lives in Kailua, Hawaii.

© 2002 Newsweek, Inc.

[ivalis]

Drift, I don't agree w/ your premise. Being anti-war does not imply a ..."virulently Anti GI sentiment"....

I come from a family of WWI veterans. While not unanimous in their feelings, for the most part were, anti-war (in large part due to their participation in WWII). My father, a Guadalcanal, Tarawa, Saipain, veteran, was the most vocal of them all.

I wish Dad were alive today, I'm sure he would share my disgust over the current happenings in the Mid-East.

It was ironic that during the draft the most vocal protest came from the group that was indeed insulated from it (as indicated above).

The bulk of us were merely resigned to our fate. We weren't happy about it, given a choice we would of done something else with that period of our lives (ala Cheney, Wolfowitz, Clinton, et al).

To say that someone is automatically anti-GI because of their postition on a particular conflict is and has always been absurd. Like saying an individual is anti-Cop because they are anti-crime.

[thedrifter]

I agree with you Ivy.....

What I have seen change from Vietnam....is You might be against the war but not Our Men and Women in Harms Way.........

Sempers,

Roger
:marine:

[radio relay]

Well shoot! I might as well add my two cents. It'll probably rankle a few folks, but here goes...

First off, all these yahoos who are "re-thinking" their positions on the Vietnam war and GI's, are just a bunch of hypocrits in my book! they can kiss my butt!!! Whatever angst they are feeling now cannot compare to the pain they put us through back then!

I spent roughly a year in San Diego, and about six months in Lejuene, before I finally went to Vietnam, and I'm here to tell you that the disrespect I, and all people in uniform, endured during those years was terrible. Our own countrymen, of all ages, but particularly of our own generation, could not be more up front about how they hated the military..... i.e. me, and my fellow GI's. In San Diego, we were not even allowed to wear our uniforms while on liberty, for fear of reprisal from the locals, but they could tell by our hair cuts, and the way we dressed. They harrassed us anyway.

Then, I went to Vietnam, and witnessed good young men dieing, and being terribly maimed. The rest of us endured a year or more, of firefights, toxic chemicals, filth, bugs and vermin, bad food, loneliness, and boredom, while fighting against an evil enemy (communism, remember communism?), which for more than 50 years was hell bent on the destruction of the United States. We were young men giving of ourselves to protect those at home, who loathed us and made sure we knew it.

When I got back, and got out. Attitudes from my countrymen were basically: "who gives a sh!t, and so what if you were in Vietnam. You must be a loser. Else, you would have found a way not to go. You're probably a violent, homeless drug addict too. We don't care!!! Go away!"

However, I will never forget how low I felt, when I went to my local VFW. I figured I'd find someone there who could understood how it was to have been in a war. A friendly place. Somewhere you could find people that might understand your memories, good and bad.

Well, not exactly.

I walked in, and this guy who was maybe thirty years older than me, with Navy tatoos all over his arms, was there. I told him I wanted to join the VFW. He just laughed in my face, and told me that Vietnam wasn't a "real" war, and to get my ass out of there. I couldn't believe it. coming from another Veteran. I turned around and left.

So, basically for about thirty uears. I never let anyone know I was a Vietnam Veteran. It was like I was ashamed. I thought The Wall was a joke. I thought that anyone who bragged about their service in Vietnam was a poser (actually most were). It was a part of my life that didn't happen.

I just wanted to forget it. Not because I was sorry I served. Not because I wasn't proud to have served with, and been associated with some of the finest people of my generation. Certainly not because of what I had "been through". It was because of the way my own country had treated us Vietnam Veterans, when all we were trying to do was the patriotic and right thing!

Anyway, about five years ago, I came to terms with it. I went to D.C. and I visited The Wall, and found some names. I wept there, and then wept for hours in my hotel room. Last year I read some of those names at The Wall. While I don't feel ashamed any longer. I still feel great anger towards those who tried for so long to keep me down, and would not allow me to feel the pride of having served my country in Vietnam.

Maybe I'm wrong, but that's how I will feel until the day I die!

SF

[MillRatUSMC]

This confirms our beliefs back then.
I served in Vietnam in the early years.
So there wasn't much protest then,
some were protesting, it had reach the heights of the protest after Tet of 68.
I always been proud to have served in Vietnam.
First in 1965 for 4 months with India 3/4 because my tour in Hawaii was over.
I was send back CONUS.
Later part of 1966, I got orders back to Vietnam.
First couple of months, I worked at the Transit Faculity in Danang.
I than got assigned to Golf 2/1 for ten months.
When I was working in the steelmills in the late 60's and early 70's.
I had co-workers, who try everything under the sun to get out of the draft.
One got fatter every time he got a notice.
Another shot himself in the leg the night before in induction physical.
My department had been exempt from service because of our speciality; welding.
But as Vietnam heated up, we lost that exemption leading to these two taking the above actions.
I could sense back than that many protesting were doing it to preserve themselves, not from a moral stand point.
Many now write about missing the action and finding themselves lacking in their "manhood" whatever that suppose to mean.
I think it all boils down to one "Core Values" or lack of.

Semper Fidelis
Ricardo

[MillRatUSMC]

Forgot to mention, that I was denied serve in a bar.
The bartender told me.
"I don't serve your kind here, get out!"
I was well dress as I had just came from taking a young lady to dinner.
I decided to have a night cap before retiring.
I was quite dark after Vietnam and I have some features that appear Asiatic.
Because I was told that everybody and every race was served there.
Maybe this man was a veteran, who served in the Pacific.
Well, I left and went to another bar for that night cap.
He loss, somebody else gain!

Semper Fidelis
Ricardo

[firstsgtmike]

radio relay, Ricardo:

Are you guys holding a grudge?

They said they were sorry, didn't they?

They were sorry SOB's then, they are sorry SOB's now.

Their sorry excuse is how young they were at the time.

They forget, SO WERE WE!

They crawled, while we stood up.

They never realized that from that position, sooner or later, they would be forced to look up.

To see THEM, we would have to look down. I choose not to.

There is nothing so cold as a thousand yard stare, when some slime is trying to explain why he wasn't there when you were.

I don't argue.

I don't respond.

But I do say; "Please let me know when you are finished, because I have other things to do and I don't want to be considered rude or impolite".

Semper Fi

[MillRatUSMC]

FirstSgtmike,
Shakespeare might have being answering for us in these words;

He that shall live this day, and see old age,
Will yearly on the vigil feast his neighbours,
And say 'To-morrow is Saint Crispian:'
Then will he strip his sleeve and show his scars.
And say 'These wounds I had on Crispin's day.'
Old men forget: yet all shall be forgot,
But he'll remember with advantages
What feats he did that day: then shall our names.
Familiar in his mouth as household words
Harry the king, Bedford and Exeter,
Warwick and Talbot, Salisbury and Gloucester,
Be in their flowing cups freshly remember'd.
This story shall the good man teach his son;
And Crispin Crispian shall ne'er go by,
From this day to the ending of the world,
But we in it shall be remember'd;
We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother; be he ne'er so vile,
This day shall gentle his condition:
And gentlemen in England now a-bed
Shall think themselves accursed they were not here,
And hold their manhoods cheap whiles any speaks
That fought with us upon Saint Crispin's day.

Coming back, I was very angry on all the deaths that I had seen.
While viewing those protesting not from a moral point of view but from one of self-preservation.
Lead to this;
My first try at poetry.
This young man really is an old man looking back on life in the Marine Corps.

A YOUNG MAN

There once was a young fellow,
Who dress neat,
Others thought him shallow,
This young fellow,
Was on a path,
Remembering all those other young fellows,
Now forever still,
It was God will,
For this young fellow,
To walk on that path,
Remembering all those other young fellows.

Here is my second try at poetry.

WHY

I've asked my self that question,
Why did you have to die,
While those that had the most to guard,
Left it to the poor to go and die,
Sometimes, I feel sad,
That you died,
Even at this late date,
No one wants to say "Why",
You had to die,
Was it luck?
Or God's will,
That you had to die and be forever still.

My last try at poetry.

WHO SPEAKS FOR THE DEAD?

I see a "Wall" of Names
Where images are reflected.
Of those that went to their "FATE".
In place of many that had excuses from thier fate.
Who speaks for the "DEAD" at this late date?
No one, as most want to forgive and forget.
I'm sorry,I just can't do that just yet.

That poem was placed on the Vietnam Memorial in honor of many that died in Vietnam, doing their duty to God, Country and their beloved Corps.

Take a few moments and look over your shoulder,
You might see them as they were.

I came back angry and remembering their cries of pain.

But from this forth,
I try to remember their laughter and how happy they were.

Remember all our POW/MIA's and KIA's in all the countries of Southeast Asia.

If I made you stop and think about all those other "Fellows".
It was worth all my work.

Now these shallow words from those protesting back then fall on ears that are as dead as those men I saw killed in Vietnam...
"It don't mean Nuthing...

Semper Fidelis
Ricardo

[MillRatUSMC]

My note;
If they were to impose the draft again, as it is in the minds of some to do.
Along with the stop loss in the Army.
You will see more protest on what some are calling Dubya's War.
That will pale the protest of the 60's and 70's.
Even at this late date, many take no notice of those been killed or wounded in all the countries that were fighting this war on terrorism.
Many will have "Other Priorities" like many had back then, now they hold their "manhood" cheap because they past the chance to stand a post and a place in the ranks with us back than...

Semper Fidelis
Ricardo

[radio relay]

Firstsgtmike, I don't hold any grudges, but I ain't forgetting either. I'm polite when some scumbag tells me how he wishes he had had the balls to serve his country back then. However, inside I'm thinking "you coward".

The pukes that really get me are those who think that because their father served in WWII, they somehow have an exemption. It's ok that they were yellow, because good old Dad wasn't. I always tell those sleazeballs how my father served in WWII, Korea, and Vietnam. The man was a bonafide war hero, and certainly my hero! He didn't cut me no slack, but he was a fine example and role model. I expected to serve our country, and I never felt it was an obligation, but a priviledge.

The draft dodgers can kiss my gyrene green behind!

Like I said, all the rest of it I've come to terms with. I finally understand what "it don't mean nuthin'" means.

MillRat, great poems. They say volumes!

SF

[reddog4950]

Radio, I had a lot of training before going to the Nam in 68, due to I joined right after I turned 17. When I returned I was shunned by some, but that was over 40 years ago bro , let it go.
Just pray the next generation don't have to pay the price we did.
This is my opinion.
Reddog4950

[GunnerMike]

This huge rock is near a gravel pit on Highway 25 in rural Iowa. For generations, kids have painted slogans, names, and obscenities on it, changing its character many, many times. A few months back, the rock received its latest paint job, and since then it has been left completely undisturbed. It's quite an impressive sight. Click on the link below and check for yourself. There are multiple photos.

The Rock (http://www.ticz.com/homes/users/bob/On-A-Rock/On-A-Rock.htm)

[MillRatUSMC]

GunnerMike more on that rock...
http://www.supportthevets.com/IowaRock.htm

http://www.supportthevets.com/Bubba3.gif
This young man has initiated a "Spark of Patriotism" in Veterans and non-Veterans alike! Something that would have gone unnoticed if it hadn't been for the Internet, ... its just a Local thing to this young man named Ray "Bubba" Sorensen II! But, because of the notice of his work by a veteran in his travels, it has become a National Matter! It only took a click of the mouse to show America; that we are truly thought of by people other then our own! We can make up Stories on why he does this, ... and make up reasons why he continues, but here it is in his own words! ... Bubba ... from Our Heart we all salute you!
Response From Bubba;

Hey Irish,
I've attached an old photo of me on the rock the first year I
painted it in 1999. Umm... a little about myself....I'm 24 years old, I live in Des Moines, Iowa but I grew up around Greenfield, Iowa. The rock used to be a graffiti rock that local kids painted on, then in 1999 I got the idea to paint a tribute to our veterans for Memorial Day.
You see in 1999 it was pre-9/11 and so I felt patriotism was low and that people were forgetting that Memorial Day was about the veterans not just another 3 day weekend. I had also just seen "Saving Private Ryan" and it gave me a whole new sense of pride about our military men and women. Every Memorial Day since that first year I've painted a different tribute to veterans on that same rock....which you can view atwww.sorensencrew.com . I continue to paint because I believe in, and love, God and my country and want to express to passerby's that freedom isn't free. Hope that helps. Talk to ya later.

God Bless the U.S.

Ray "Bubba" Sorensen II

Our thanks to Bubba, but we would be remiss if we didn't question Bubba, why sell those paintings?
But than one has to eat...
Well it don't mean Nuthing

Semper Fidelis
Ricardo

[reddog4950]

I beleive a lot of people do not surpport the war we are in now, not as little as in the Nam. Most important is they do surpport the troops. For that I am gratefull, but the question of do we belong there, as always is handled by th politicans.:idea: Let the Marines just go in and do as they were trained , use a search and destroy mission and the war would be over fast.
reddog4950:marine:

[namgrunt]

This all sounds so familiar. I had the bad fortune of flying home on my first post-Vietnam leave, in an airliner with four hippies in my vicinity. I was in winter greens, with the correct ribbons denoting Vietnam service. The four college age kids, two males and two females, spotted me, and began a louder than usual conversation about the war and those baby-killers that participated in it. They kept eyeballing me to see if I could hear their comments. Their denigration ended when one puke stated that all GI's should die at the courageous Viet Cong's hands.

Gents, I had to walk away before I came unglued, or I would have killed at least one of those smug young idiots. I had just been in country a week before, and knew I could take both the males down before they could react. The boys were hoping to score points and get laid. They didn't realize how near death walked that flight.

On future travels, changing into civvies didn't conceal anything, because the haircut gave me away. After I got out, the antagonists changed. It became the old vets at the VFW posts, which gave me grief. One post, in San Pablo, CA, tossed me out without so much as "by your leave", or please. I shunned VFW posts until two months ago, when I was invited to go to the nearest local one by the patrons. Now the VFW's are filled with Vietnam Era Vets.

It has taken me 30 years to loosen up enough to retell some of my experiences. Lots of folks are finally willing to listen. I've sought out websites, like this one, to enjoy the company of folks who share the ideals, and understand the sacrifices we all made.

For God, Country, and Corps!!
Semper Fidelis!

namgrunt

[CPLRapoza]

The fact that people say the oppose the war bt support the troops seems kind of hypocritical to me. How can you Support the troops but not the Job they do. Just by saying that you don't support the war, will put doubt into a soldier, sailor, airman or Marines head enough to make him/her think if what he's doing is right, and then to go and say that you support him/her for what he does, confuses the hell out of us. I't like eating spaghetti with out any sauce, yea t works but it's just not right.

If the men and women actually fighting this War think it's right, then by God so do I, cause their the only ones who truly know.

[reddog4950]

Originally posted by CPLRapoza
The fact that people say the oppose the war bt support the troops seems kind of hypocritical to me. How can you Support the troops but not the Job they do. Just by saying that you don't support the war, will put doubt into a soldier, sailor, airman or Marines head enough to make him/her think if what he's doing is right, and then to go and say that you support him/her for what he does, confuses the hell out of us. I't like eating spaghetti with out any sauce, yea t works but it's just not right.

If the men and women actually fighting this War think it's right, then by God so do I, cause their the only ones who truly know.

Some people will never change, Marines will just adaptand overcome any and all in there way. I surpport the cause and the man and women over there, in a way I wish I was with them.
S.F. Reddog4950