An Armed Force That Has More PC Types Than Warriors

[thedrifter]

An Armed Force That Has More PC Types Than Warriors



We had two people in the same jobfield in my squadron. One was a man, who was an E6 with less than ten years (this is no easy task). The other was a woman who was an E6 with about eighteen years.

Making E7(chief) in the Navy is no simple task. Both of these people were up for it at the same time. The man was absolutely outstanding at what he did. His appearance was always spotless, he knew his job inside out, and would always help out anyone who needed it. His evals and test scores reflected this. The woman was practically useless, always looked terrible, would help out no one, and had a job that didn't require hardly any skill and kept her away from everyone(she was a problem to get along with). When the test results came out, SHE was the one who made it, with lower test and evals than the man. She was also over body fat and failed her physical readiness tests, which at that time would keep you from getting promoted. She got promoted anyway, and on the next cycle, the guy I discussed above did make E7. There are only a certain number of people who can make any given rank in any jobfield, so it's not like you can promote more than you need.

I was in the Airframe shop, and in this shop we had a supervisor who had almost no knowledge of anything whatsoever, except who's butt he should be kissing. He couldn't make E6, so our command capped him to E6 (made him one anyway because he couldn't do it on his own). Our shop members were horrified of this because we knew that there were many people who were better and more deserving than him. He later did make E7 after I got out, but never would have had he not been capped to E6, and still did not make E7 on his leadership or technical knowledge. He made it because he was putting his nose in the right place, and always telling the leadership waht they wanted to hear.

We had a woman in my shop, who found out that she didn't like being a mechanic very much, which was her chosen jobfield. She got a job doing paperwork, and very rarely touched the plane. In today's military, you need all the manpower you can get because you don't have what you need in the first place. So losing an able bodied mechanic because she doesn't like getting dirty is a big deal, as it puts more weight on the rest of us. From what I saw, her case was the rule and not the exception, as every shop had a woman, and they all did paperwork, and didn't do anything mechanical, or if they did, it was very,very rare.

Now let's talk about pregnancy. The minute a woman is found to be pregnant, they are immediately placed in a job that has no contact with chemicals of any kind.

So working on jets is out, as you can't even fuel one. After so long a woman is only allowed to work half days. Yes, you read that right. They still get full pay.

And if a cruise or deployment is coming up, they're automatically ineligible.

I had a Chief get a hit and run DUI, and was only forced to retire without punishment. We had a case of another guy(E5), who was also a pretty boy butt kisser. He had gotten his SECOND DUI right as I got to the squadron, and got no punishment. He got out of it because he was another guy who was always saying the right thing to the right person, and didn't have much technical knowledge. He later got his third DUI(DUI is one of the worst things you can do in the military today), and they finally did kick him out.

I saw a lot of things when I was in, and I'm glad I did it. I made better friends that I've ever had in my life, and still have these friends. However, examples such as the ones I've given above are extremely disheartening to the people who are very good workers and do the right thing, even if it's not what the leadership wants to hear. Out of all the people I worked with, most of the ones who were the good workers got out. It didn't really matter how many years they had, I saw one guy with fifteen years say he'd had enough and refuse to reenlist. The sad part is, what you're left with is not anywhere near the quality of the ones that quit due to the fact that they didn't like what they were seeing. I saw people who were really good at what they did get promoted, also. But sadly, they were the exception and not the rule.


http://www.sftt.org/cgi-bin/csNews/csNews.cgi?database=Special%20Reports.db&command=viewone&op=t&id=116&rnd=756.4742716338139


Sempers,

Roger
:marine:

[firstsgtmike]

Sometimes, it's the Peter Principle.

Somtimes, it's Murphy's Law.

Sometimes, ("our command capped him to E6") the story being told has obvious flaws. (i.e. No Command has the authority to "award" a promotion to E-6).

Let's take that paragraph; "I was in the Airframe shop ....... supervisor ...always telling the leadership what they wanted to hear." Oh? What did they want to hear that was not supported by results?


Sometimes, ("got a job doing paperwork") a team-member's weight is carried by performing necessary support functions.

Pregnancy. The point made is accepted without comment.

DUI. Sometimes, forced retirement IS a punishment. As for the other "guy, (E-5)", what point was the griper trying to make?

The main point of the article is that the Navy, ( "the good workers got out... what you're left with is not anywhere near the quality of the ones that quit." ) is less than it was because he chose not to (or was not allowed to) reenlist.

Unfortunately, since the super-hero chose not to reveal his name, we cannot give him the credit he seeks, i.e. being the last of the "good guys" in the navy, after which the navy went to hell.

P.S. This analysis is not done in support of the navy, because a squid is still the lowest form of Marine life. (Corpsmen and med-evac chopper pilots excepted.)

[VMGRMech]

I'm sure I'll get jumped by some PC bozo for this, but in my experience women assigned to maintenace work center are terrible mechanics, with one or two exceptions. Other than than that this clown is...

[RichLundeen]

In 7.5 years active duty, that was EXACTLY my experience as well, VMGR Mech!

I don't care how you finished in A school, almost every female that actually MADE it to the fleet perfomed a job other than their mechanical MOS. At least that's what I saw as a Winger. Only ONE WM in the Hyd shop was worth a damn, and actually very good at her job. She would actually be on the line for nearly every launch as well.

Absolutley the 'exception' to the rule, this lady was.

"I'm sure I'll get jumped by some PC bozo for this..........."

Jump away! The truth is what it is.

And yes, it sounds like the disgruntled Sailor is venting.

[MAJMike]

If women are so worthless in mechanical fields as many of the posters above seem to think, then explain to me how we managed to develop such massive air superiority with aircraft that were by and large built by women during WWII?

There is a big difference between "PC" and having negative attitudes towards women.

If you were on active duty and exhibited this mind set, you would be a candidate for sensitivity training.

[RichLundeen]

With all due respect, Sir.

My experience was a matter of observation over 7.5 years. Not discrimination, or lack of sensitivity. I grew up with four older sisters, including my twin. I know what women are capable of.

The difference I would offer would be, the women in the civilian sector HAD to perform, in order to get paid, and keep their job. This is not necessarily the case in the military, as you know better than I.

Aptitude does not always correlate to ability. And it would seem, in most cases that I saw, WMs arriving to the Squadrons I was with, simply didn’t stay in their MOSs. I could care less that they are women, as they are Marines first and foremost.

The problem I had with the situation was that, outside of occasional ‘collateral duty’, or ‘B’ billeting, you should be performing your job description outlined by your MOS, time in service, time in grade, etc.

I did not see this to be the case, pure and simple, where WM’s were concerned.

That is not to say, this is the case fleet wide. Like I said, just my observation. Maybe isolated to the aviation community, I don’t know, IMHO.

Semper Fi

Rich

[greybeard]

With all due respect Sir, Apples to oranges.
IMO,which admittedly is worth little, there is a big difference in building something in a stateside plant, from prints and taking care of it in the field. Granted, quality control and dedication must be there, and Rosie the Riveter did an outstanding job, but it just isn't the same. The maint manual/natops manual hasn't been written yet, that can cover all the problems that crop up unexpectedly. It takes a certain mindset to get it right. "I ain't gonna let no machine whip me!!" Now, I'm not saying women can't do it, as I got out long before they started doing it. I'm just saying there is a big difference in building one and keeping one flying. Succeeding at one doesn't neccessarily equate success at the other. How many times have I seen a new car come up with problems and get sent back to the dealership for a fix, and not even the factory reps be able to figure it out? A bunch. It always falls to some field mechanic to keep plugin away at it till he figures it out. Building something doesn't mean you can fix it as well.

And what in God's name is sensitivty training??????

[firstsgtmike]

greybeard,

In a word, "sensitivity training" is a program designed to teach "political correctness".

Upon completion, you will no longer refer to someone as a "dumb ****" but rather an "intellectually disadvantaged piece of excretement".

You'd be amazed at what it can do for your vocabulary.

A "short-timer" becomes an "altitude deficient chronometer", an SOB becomes "the male offspring of a female canine", etc. etc.

It doesn't change opinions, it just confuses the hell out of the object of your invective.

You would no longer call someone a "bastard". You would concede that his parents were married, but not to each other.

Interestingly enough, you would get a chuckle out of the dictionaries the new P.C. requires.

If you looked under "differently partnered parents" you would see the definition "bastard".


But you really have to look at things from HIS point of view.

That's sensitivity training.

[greybeard]

Awww Crap!! Somebody shoot me please.

[MAJMike]

First Sergeant...

Well said, you should consider a career in politics.

CPL Lundeen, have you ever observed any men who were not totally proficient in their MOS? Any men in your shop that were less than proficient?

I'm wondering about your point of view.

[RichLundeen]

I Pm'd the top part of this to you, Greybeard. And then I thought I had better just go ahead and say what was on my mind, after all.

I think, IMHO, 'sensitivity training' is often a tool for someone that is to weak or unwilling to just plain say 'I don't agree with you' on a given topic. At least in the military. I do understand the liability issues in the civvy sector. I don't like it, but I understand.

Is there actually 'sensitivity training in the Marine Corps now?

I would say, in large part, the issue that I saw was head count. When a Marine reports to their MOS in squadron, there are only so many alloted to the MOS. In some cases, not enough ARE alloted. I understand that's the way it's always been.

But what about division chiefs and NCOICs? Trying to accomplish the mission, fly the hours, and look out for their troops? The Marine that holds that MOS designation, and has reported to their respective unit, IS SUPPOSED to be functioning in their respective shop!

Again, regardless of gender.

Again, my personal experience. We transitioned from the F-4 to the F-18, in VMFA-115, out of Beaufort, SC, 1984 - '85. Best damn Fighter Attack Squadron in HISTORY! But, I digress. Powerplants and Flightline were two seperate shops, with a 40 headcount each. Phantom headcount. So, when the shops consolidated into Powerline, we initially had around 80 or so Marines. At this time, we had 7 WM's assigned to PP or FL. FOUR of these Marines were in different areas of the unit. One expiditer. One barracks NCO. One in the tool room. One on base beautification. While all but one of these Marines transitioned back to the shop, they were sent to these 'collateral duties' for a reason. They passed ADJ school, but couldn't wrench. Period. Simple as that. And it wasn't noticed too much; we had way more Mechs and Plane Captains than were needed at the time.

As Marines that hadn't had '18 school transitioned out of 115 for school or reassignment, and the shop head count 'slimmed down', it became VERY noticable. Especially during 800 flight hour months, and three crews. Sometimes we were physically down 10 heads, and when there are people FAP'd out, or somewhere else, and those Marines are female, well, I think we all know where this is going.

Marines working overlapping shifts, while being completely aware the FAP'd Marine's are getting hot chow instead of box lunches, getting to actually GO to the gym, work normal hours, etc. Our initial 'transition birds' were old, nasty Navy birds, with maint logs as thick as a frickin' tree. We got 14 of 'em, to forfill a 12 bird flight schedule. And, we needed every one of 'em, as at LEAST two of 'em were 'hanger queens' at all times. We couldn't cannibalize these AC's fast enough! We didn't get the last one out of the barn until about two months after getting our new birds from St Louis. Yup, right about the time we were getting our old ones squared away, of course.

Again, I know this is 'par'. But it doesn't make it right. Ask the Career Planners and SgtMaj's in units that have these issues.

So, to make a long story longer. I continued to see this occour, for the rest of my 'extended' enlistment. I was told I 'wasn't going anywhere', just prior to the first Gulf War. Hence, my extra 1.5 years I served beyond my contract. My pleasure, completely.

Again, as to your statement, Sir, it would seem that I'm not alone in this experience.




Semper Fi

Rich

[greybeard]

As Marines that hadn't had '18 school transitioned out of 115 for school or reassignment, and the shop head count 'slimmed down', it became VERY noticable. Especially during 800 flight hour months, and three crews. Sometimes we were physically down 10 heads, and when there are people FAP'd out, or somewhere else, and those Marines are female, well, I think we all know where this is going.

Guess that's another term I'm not familar with. :( Or maybe I just forgot it somewhere along the 30+ yrs since I've been on a flightline.......

[kentmitchell]

I was infantry for four years--cold, wet, hungry, tired (no sleep) in the field and dealing with chicken byproduct in garrison at times.
Never saw a sh*tbird get promoted, only dreamed of seeing a woman. We were horny, frustrated, homesick, lonely, rough, tough, meaner than hell and the best fighters in the world.
PC meant plain chocolate, not that other crap that I have to deal with at my job these days.
An easy way to avoid PC is on the pointy end of the spear in a MEU. Plus you might get to kick some ass.

[RichLundeen]

Yes Sir, I absolutely did observe male Marines perform poorly, or not at all, in their MOS. But not at nearly as comparable a ratio, Sir. I'll own up to my share of trouble as well, Sir. <br />
<br />
Let me...

[firstsgtmike]

"chicken byproduct".

Now THERE'S a P.C. term I hadn't heard before.

But then again, I retired prior to sensitivity training becoming part of a Marine's continuing education program.

We had to settle for something similar to the Watch Commander's muster on Hill Street Blues.

I have difficulty contemplating the necessity of "requesting the attendance of an individual who prefers sex in the female-superior position to accompany me into my government-provided functional environmental location for a donkey mastication".

Have we become part of the air farce?

[Barrio_rat]

This must be a Wingers b.tch session... LOL We had a few women in our shop - I level Ordnance - and except for maybe one (didn't know her too well but didn't think much of her from what I did know) we had no problems with our WM's doing their jobs. Even had one 6521 (build-up) who was thrown to the wolves. She weighed 5 Lbs less than the ammo cans and could hardly see over the flatbed of the 2 1/2T that she lifted 'em onto. They actually tried to break her as it was "men only" in build-up. This gal was tough but was also the 1st to say there should be a strength requirement for working in build-up or as a 6521 as it is such a physically demanding job. We also had very messed up hours as our shop was supposed to have 100-120 Marines and we had about 60-70. When you take away the ones who are out on Dep to Okinawa, WestPac and to the PG (the 1st one, not Dessert Shield/Storm), not to mention any collateral duties that various Marines are assigned to, you are left with very few Marines to keep 8 squadrons going. The women along with the men got the job done.

Now, ya want b.tchin' .. here's some b.tchin for you. I actually had more of a problem with the Marines who lived in town - or how they were treated. They (the command) would be more lenient on a 2 year LCpl who lived out in town than they would be on a 4 or 5 year Cpl or Sgt who lived in the barracks. These guys could be ½ hour late to work - consistently, yet let your car break down just once and have to hoof it into work and you caught hell. I ended up as the Duty Driver two Thanksgivings in a row. Good spot as you only work nights and the weekend starting Mon at 1600 hours and ending the next Mon at 0730 and then you get two full days off. But with Thanksgiving the weekend starts at 1600 hours on Wed and doesn't end until 0730 on Mon. I had a couple officers get mad at me for not being well shaved and pressed when they came in on post and I asked them if I could head over to the barracks for a shower and a shave. Each of the SSgts and Capt’s that came in only worked for 24 hours. We had a guy come into our shop who knew the books but never worked on a piece of gear. He was meritoriously promoted to Cpl and to Sgt. He even made Sgt before I did (though I got the last laugh, CMC promoted me with a back date a month before his promotion) and all the while he carried the Maj's briefcase. I had a SSgt who was a real winner too - gave me an "official - unofficial counseling" because I did not field day my room - when I was on LEAVE! He called me in a had me sign the paperwork and all so that they'd have it on file. I ended up an "office pogue" often because I was found to be able to type well and actually could catalog and file - I was made Training NCO as well as IMRL and Production Control. It all worked out well though - I'd make a "deal" with my top that if I go out on this "assignment" would he put me on the next Dep to Oki or WestPac. I got it each time - A WestPac, Oki and an Iraq Pac. So I got to "Winter" in the South Pacific and summer in SoCal. Not a bad way to spend yer tour! Okay, there was that bit in the PG but it was sunny there too - when ya could see the sun.

I guess women in the Corps depends on the command. Hold ‘em accountable just as they would the men. Expect and accept no more and no less. Overall, I guess I was in good commands. Or, maybe it’s just an Ordnance thing.... ;)

IYAOYAS!

[RichLundeen]

Hi 'Barrio',

I believe part of it was the 'climate' of my commands, for sure.

And I sure agree with the 'towners' thing. Even the single Marines in town got 'cut a huss'. And I hear you on the 'Duty driver' deal too! Too funny. Or not.

1st Sgt Mike; I'm STILL laughing at your last post!

So, now ya'll know a 'little' (sorry about the 'rant mode') more about me!

Semper Fi guys, and GIRLS!

Rich

[VMGRMech]

Originally posted by MAJMike
If women are so worthless in mechanical fields as many of the posters above seem to think, then explain to me how we managed to develop such massive air superiority with aircraft that were by and large built by women during WWII?

There is a big difference between "PC" and having negative attitudes towards women.

If you were on active duty and exhibited this mind set, you would be a candidate for sensitivity training.

I tell you what, send Rosie the Riveter to my shop and I'll let her build all the B-17's she wants. Untill then please send me some WM's with an intrest in maintaining aircraft, Thanks a bunch.

BTW I didn't say worthless I said they make bad mechanics.

As far as the brown bagger thing goes the military is most certainly the only job in the world were being married automatically increases your wages.

Imagine going to a job interview:

Prospective Employer: This job pays 30k a year

Prospective Employee: But I have a family.

Prospective Employer: Oh, what hell make it 35K, cause we like you and your kids.:banana:

[greensideout]

Enjoying this discussion---in fact, LMAO!

Shop? What the hell is that? FMF didn't have much in the way of shops nor did we have WM's, so life was good. Screw "PC". :)

[Barrio_rat]

shop - n. also shoppe
1. A small retail store or a specialty department in a large store.
2. An atelier; a studio.
3. A place for manufacturing or repairing goods or machinery.
4. A commercial or industrial establishment: a printing shop.
5. A business establishment; an office or a center of activity.
6. A home workshop.
7. A schoolroom fitted with machinery and tools for instruction in industrial arts. The industrial arts as a technical science or course of study.

In this case it, numbers 3, 4 and 5 would best apply. Sorry GSO, Wingers - Platoon? Battalion? Company? Squad? WTF is a squad? LOL We had a MAW, a MAG, the MALS (used to be a H&MS) and other squadrons and then within the MALS and squadrons you have your various "shops" - Air Frames, Support Equipment (used to be GSE), Avionics, PC (not politically correct but Production Control), Power Plants, Ordnance and perhaps a few others. Ya know, long hair, greasy uniforms (except for those tweeks in avionics) and the marching abilities of a 1st phase recruit! LOL

[greensideout]

? Barrio_rat, your point? I somehow missed it.

[greybeard]

I dunno Barrio_rat-some of the places I was at weren't as good as a home workshop.

OTOH, I see lot's of happy Marines here!!!
"A grouchy Marine is a happy Marine"

[RichLundeen]

Originally posted by VMGRMech


I tell you what, send Rosie the Riveter to my shop and I'll let her build all the B-17's she wants. Untill then please send me some WM's with an intrest in maintaining aircraft, Thanks a bunch.

BTW I didn't say worthless I said they make bad mechanics.

As far as the brown bagger thing goes the military is most certainly the only job in the world were being married automatically increases your wages.

Imagine going to a job interview:

Prospective Employer: This job pays 30k a year

Prospective Employee: But I have a family.

Prospective Employer: Oh, what hell make it 35K, cause we like you and your kids.:banana:

It's true that there are women I work with in the civvy sector now, that perform job functions I wouldn't and COULDN'T perform! Not even because I wouldn't like 'em, I just plain don't have the aptitude, OR interest.

I think the 'root cause' is the fact that your ASVAB scores 'qualify' you for a MOS, which is worth 'NADA' in the fleet. Regardless of getting through 'A' school.

I show up at my job of going on eight years tomorrow, don't do it WELL..................................

....................I lose my job. Period. Eight years, countless hours would not matter. The 'rubber meeting the road' matters.

As VMGR drew an analogy, no one pays my mortgage(s), or feeds my family. I do.

WHAT THE HECK IS EVERYBODY'S NAME ANYWHO!

Sorry, I just spilled my guts on this thread, feeling a little vulnerable............ NOT!

Semper Fi

Rich

[firstsgtmike]

Answering questions.

Shop? It's what my wife does for entertainment. When her purse and credit cards were stolen, I never reported the loss. (The thief was spending less than she did.)
=====

"It's true that there are women I work with in the civvy sector now, that perform job functions I wouldn't and COULDN'T perform!"

Are you talking about Monica Lewinsky?
=========

"the brown bagger thing".

There's not much room for argument there.

I realize that some short sighted people married a bar-room slut so they could brown bag it, only to discover that the costs required to support her children exceeded the additional income.

bidi bum bidi bum bidi boom.
=================

WHAT THE HECK IS EVERYBODY'S NAME ANYWHO!

"Everybody" is the multiplepluristic term for "they". I've had a lifetime of difficulties demanding to know who "they" are. And now, you want to know who "everybody" is? Rots of Ruck, Charrie.
===================

[RichLundeen]

Thanks for the 'illumination', I think, 1st Sgt!

I jsut have an 'aversion', so to speak, in regard to talking with, I think it's called 'screen names', or whatever. Kinda new to this, stuff, but I HAVE posted a fair amount on 'Grunt.com'.

But what the hell. Gettin' a little toasted, and happy to to hang with people I can talk with. Can't ride my bicycle to work in the AM, too much snow here in Coloado today; if I gotta drive, it may as well be hung over!

[firstsgtmike]

RichLundeen,

Track my posts.

I play, I tease, but if you check enough of them out, you will learn exactly who and what I am.

If I have a problem with someone, or something, it is handled "behind the barn" so to speak, by PM.

I don't feel I "toasted" you. Without looking back on a specific, if I made a comment, it was related to a thought or an idea, and NOT to an individual.

Individuals, like you and I, come and go. Here today, gone tomorrow. It is the ideas, the ideals, that linger long after we are gone.

I wouldn't waste my time arguing with an individual. But I would put up my beliefs, arguments, rationale against any credo I disagree with. I take it out of the back room and put it on the front page.

It's not the individual I want to educate/benefit, but to give food for thought to those looking/listening in.

My "screen name" is firstsgtmike. I sign off on my posts as Mike Farrell, Cagayan de Oro, Philippines. Going back through my posts will give anyone an accurate picture as to exactly who and what I am.

And if a psychologist chose to make it a term project, ................!

That's scary.

Got a question? Pm it. I'll answer it. If I feel my response should be considered by a larger audience, I'll post it, without ever mentioning who, what, where, when, or how.

I enjoy the time I spend here. But I also consider it as a very limited payback for all, and to all, that I owe.

Semper Fi

[RichLundeen]

Hey, good morning from cold Colorado, Mike!

I meant I was getting toasted last evening, as in a little Jim Beam!

Thanks for expanding on everything!

Semper Fi

Rich