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thedrifter
08-29-02, 05:45 AM
Published on Wednesday, August 28, 2002 iby CommonDreams.org


by Bruce Rippe

Two weekends ago the well known, traveling replica of the Vietnam War Memorial was on display in Greeley, Colorado near where I live. For years I imagined seeing the memorial in Washington, D.C., so the opportunity to visit the replica was the closest I've come to realizing that wish.

My experience at "the Wall" likely was similar to the hundreds of thousands of people who have visited both the original memorial and the traveling replica over the years. Memories flooded back of the year both my father and older brother were serving overlapping tours in South Vietnam. My mind swirled with TV images of both battlefield reports and protest rallies.

I saw small memorials that families had left in honor of lost loved ones. I watched Vietnam veterans, now balding or with salt-and-pepper hair, stoop or kneel silently, their fingers somberly tracing the name of a buddy who may have died in their arms. When the wind pick up I held the one end of the paper for another veteran trying to pencil etch a name of an old friend. I heard the names being read aloud one by one, the Hidalgo's, the Hinton's, the Hixon's while I was there.

As I walked past the memorial's panels numerous volunteers were eager to offer their assistance in finding the name of the individual soldier who might have brought me to this Wall. But I wasn't looking for one or two names. I was looking for all the nearly 58,000 names of young men and women who didn't come home from that war.

Standing at this Wall I was struck most by its reflection. Even the replica's panels presented a muted mirror that I imagine is magnified in the polished, black granite of the Memorial in Washington. Looking through the names I saw myself standing there, and I was deeply aware: It could have been me. It could have been my name on that Wall.

I overheard a whispered conversation between an elderly man and two family members. The man was the age of most World War II veterans, likely a veteran himself. He and his family were looking for a name, perhaps of a son, or nephew or family friend. The elderly man gestured at the Wall and whispered, "This happened because the President couldn't admit he'd made a mistake."

I was reminded of the paraphrased quotation, "If we do not learn from the mistakes of the past, we are destined to repeat them." I thought about our present circumstances as a nation. We again have a presidential administration beating drums of war against Iraq louder and louder each day. Yet President Bush still has an opportunity to learn from past mistakes and not make the same mistakes in Iraq. The lessons of the Vietnam War can still be grasped.

When President Bush returns to Washington D.C. from his Texas ranch I suggest he begin his grasp by changing his presidential jogging route to run daily through the Vietnam War Memorial...past all of the names. Better yet, he should walk through the Memorial...past all of the names. Better yet, he should stand still at the Wall, look through the names, and see his reflection in the polished stone. Perhaps he would then realize: It could have been him, and not make the mistakes of the past again.

Bruce Rippe is a founding member of Earth Literacy Companions of the Colorado Piedmont. He and his wife raise Belgian draft horses in rural Weld County, Colorado.

JAMarine
08-29-02, 09:25 AM
Outstanding Roger.
I read this article more than once. I too wonder; "Can we learn from the past"?

I truely hope so.

thanks again Buddy.

badbob
08-29-02, 01:05 PM
Roger, this could have been such a great article,

But it sounds to me like old Bruce may not be behind President Bush and going into Iraq.

Shame on Bruce for using the Vietnam Wall to perpetuate his propaganda.

Bob Neener
0351 1964-1965

thedrifter
08-29-02, 01:07 PM
Just want to thank Barndog for sending this to me and requested for me to post it if I felt is was good. So all who read the above "Reflections" should thank Barndog for this.

Sempers,

Roger

badbob
08-29-02, 02:12 PM
That was a quick piece of CYA there Roger, but it wasn’t necessary LOL.

Generally speaking, the article was very moving and regardless of who posted it, it needed posting.

I also read it several times but kept getting hung up on the last paragraph, it threw the whole article out of prospective.

For one; our President doesn’t jog much in DC anymore, he doesn’t have the time and it’s not safe.

Two; He knows and understands better than most, why and how, so many names got there on the Wall in the first place.

Three; if he even thinks about making the same mistake again, he’ll get fragged by some old Nam Vet.

If it weren't for that last paragraph, you’ve got one he!! of a good article there.

Just an Old Grunts opinion.

Semper Fi,
Bob

Barndog
08-29-02, 06:16 PM
Holy Hognuts, Batman......
I consider myself a fairly rational thinking, reasonably seasoned man. Let me state this again, for purpose of clarity: What you Nam bros did as my Uncles did (and died for), as my Father did in Korea (3 times no less, and I still get to talk to him) - is far beyond what I ever could have done for our Marine Corps.

My basis for misunderstanding (and Joe T helps me understand this - not wanting to - 'suck up ' to the American people NOW - for what happened then - in some way... however that may be interpreted) is:

What is it, or how is it - that mental posturing that motivates the mind to consider that repeating the same mistake may make it right this time around? Don't get me wrong - I DO see Iraq as a threat, but when Capt Scott Ritter, USMC sez, he doesn't have the evidence to support it. We wiped the vast majority of it clean out the FIRST TIME. Capt Ritter is NOT PREPARED to send Marines in to die for the same political reasons that your Vietnam brothers did -
(premised - my words)
........that being unnecessarily - and for reasons of a mostly political nature, in and of which an administration that will and can/could not admit a mistake in the first place - all of which were motivated primarily by money greed, and power - each of which feeds off the other.

I mean fer focks sake........ when the mass of Bush Sr's cabinet is sayin DON'T DO IT - I kinda want to listen. And hard.

Yer all still my brothers regardless. Semper FI

Barndog

badbob
08-30-02, 12:47 AM
To start with, I think Roger posted this article because he, like most of us, was initially touched by the reflections at the wall. It was really only suppose to be a wall issue.

It wasn’t till I reread the article that I began to see it’s underlying, subtle , negative statement. It may not even been what the author intended, but I did come away with a slant, real or not and now we have a forum issue.

Barndog, I’m sure you’re a good Marine, he!! You’re a Marine, that covers 90% of the unknown with me. I’ve agreed with everything you’ve posted in the past, but I’m in a debating mood, have been all day, so here goes.

You did leave yourself open here for a couple of well-planted fragmentation devices.

Name one Bush Cabinet member who has gone public with his or her direct descent from Bush’s position on Iraq. ---

You can’t, because there presently aren’t any. It’s clear where Rumsfeld and Chaney stand. As for Powel, It’s his job as Sec of State to find a peaceful solution, so he will be the last to go public and show support for a military action. By the same token, Powel hasn’t come out publicly against an attack.

Certain members of the liberal press would like us to believe otherwise. I can’t speak for the Sec of HUD, but then who cares what the rest of the cabinet may think, they have no direct impact on the outcome.

You’re either a stone cold left winger or you’re watching too much “Propaganda Television” if you believe that Bush’s Cabinet isn’t behind the President.

Further, this President will not expend needless lives to accomplish his mission; I think he’s already proved this with his mission in Afghanistan.

Fact, we are already in Iraq – it’s a reality. Only issue now, is how we proceed from here. We must have faith in Bush and those he has chosen to make the critical decisions.

And don’t think for one minute that going into Iraq is in any way similar to Vietnam, Not even close. Iraq threatens your very existence here at home. Don’t believe this and you could be placing your entire family at grave risk.

I refuse to allow the Press to dictate the outcome, already had a bad experience with the Press and War, it’s a bad mix, kind of like Gin and Water, stir it up all ya want, but they’ll always be a separation of critical mass.

What I’m trying to say here, and what has had me so worked up all day, is that I see similarities between what the press is doing today, and what started back in 1965, It was counter productive then, and it’s counter productive today. Let the military do it’s job, then analyze the cause and effect and go from there.

Lets face it, it can’t get much worse than loosing the two World Trade Center buildings and 3000 civilians within 15 minutes of the initial attack.

If Bush had been the Hawk that the press is making him out to be, he would have dropped a really big bomb on Afghanistan shortly after 9/11, when the rest of the world believed that’s exactly what he was about to do.

No President since Truman has had a better excuse to drop a NUKE, but Bush held back, showed restraint, when most of the rest of us wanted mass death and destruction.

Comparing the Vietnam Wall to what we are about to do in Iraq is just too much for this Old Grunt to handle. I got no choice but to come out of my hole as ugly as possible.

Maybe it’s easier for me to beat the War drum, because I’ve been there, done that. But I just don’t think anyone, including the press have any clues to just what kind of war our President has in mind, and this probably scares the living sh!t out of anyone who has never been shot at.

It’s pretty simple – the World drastically changed on 9/11, it’s no longer a media event, it’s gotten about as serious as it can get.

Don’t believe anything you hear on Television, it’s nothing but propaganda. If the media knows what we are planning, someone has seriously Fu*ked up.

Semper Fi,
Bob Neener
0351 1964-1968

Sorry Bro, I didn’t mean to Jump all over your SH!T, but We have to stop the Vietnam comparison ASAP, it has no relationship to our present mission. NONE - ZERO

Barndog
08-30-02, 04:25 AM
Bob

I can certanly take it, especially if I dish it out. No need to apologize for your views, hell, I don't.
The cabinet members WON'T come out and say anything - why? cause they'll be unemployed. Karen Hughes left already. And I'm tellin ya, I'd like 2-3 hours with General Powell when this is over - just to find out his 'real views' on what this experience in the Bush administration has taught him. I personally can't parallel yer experiences with what I haven't been too. This isn't something I picked up from the so-called 'liberal media' - this is a parallel I picked up on my own. I don't watch much TV bro - for very good reasons. Alot of which you stated previously.

Yer damm right the world changed 9/11. I watched it LIVE. Not on Memorex. I stood in my yard and watch oh, I dunno how many commercial airliners turn LEFT and head into Canada.(I live in Michigan) It was at that point I loaded my weapons, promptly followed by my placing my Marine Corps flag dead square center in my front yard.

I damm well know that they comes a time when some uglyness must come, lives must be lost, in order for the greater good to be brought forth. I've yet to see the case for the greater good - or the argument for evil spelled out in such a way that we should be prepared to send our Sons or Daughters to die -

I was taught at Michigan State U. - by an old history prof........ the more times you read something - the more you read into it. The ability to 'critically read' a piece of literature should happen in no more than 2 passes. The first read should spark interest to the extent that you mentally note those items that interest you - the 2nd read is where you look for the inconsistancies.

My basic problem is: hardly ANY of Bush's cabinet has military experience - aint hardly any of them wore the uniform - like I heard alot in the Corps - 'ya talk the talk, now... walk the walk' .
I heard Sen Chuck Hagel from Nebraska (R) saying, "hey, tell Mr Cheney, Mr Rove and them to sling an M-16 and walk post for about 6 months. then we got something to talk about"...... - Mr Hagel as you know is a Vietnam vet.

That statement, in an of itself spoke louder than any liberal media ever did.

Oh, and by the way, my voter registration card says NO PARTY PREFERENCE.

Semper FI

Barndog

badbob
08-30-02, 10:00 AM
Barndog, that College Prof of yours gave you good advice.

And, you’re 100% correct, if you can’t take a little incoming flack every now and then, you have no business loading the cannon.

Well, your last post has many very good points; I’m in 99.9% agreement.

Only one small issue and I’ll crawl back into my bunker.

You said “My basic problem is: hardly ANY of Bush's cabinet has military experience”

This is basically an accurate statement, and I agree, Id also like to see more military experience at the top levels of Government. But we’re stuck with what we have, and as I see it, it’s not all bad.

President Bush is the Son of a past President who is very experienced in waging war in Iraq, Dick Chaney was the Sec of Defense during the last war in Iraq, Rumsfeld is a two time Sec of Defense, and Powel was the Chairman Of the Joint Chiefs during the last war in Iraq.

If your looking for military experience at the Top, I’d say we’ve got some real legitimate experience, exactly where we need it.

Under the present circumstances I don’t think it can get much better than this.

As for - NO PARTY PREFERENCE – 10-4 -

The two party system has gotten so far out of control, that it’s almost impossible to take care of business.

If every voter registered with NO PARTY PREFERENCE – we would not only eliminate party Politics altogether, it would shift the power of government back to the People, where it belongs.


Semper Fi,
Bob Neener
0351-1964-1968

Barndog
08-30-02, 06:41 PM
Damm right Bob!

Prepared to take flack and reload. I don't dig in tho.... as per SOP...
Yes I did say theres not much military leadership there - I SHOULD have said (correction) those with ACTUAL military experience - that carried an M-14 or 16, or crewed a 34 or a Huey or a 46... or arty or whatever it might have been. As far as General Powell goes, when this is all over, I'd like to sit down with him for a few hours, and see if I could get his honest opinion of how he feels - now - after the fact: of the political party that he believed so much in, for most of his life - and how they are using him as a political pawn, and yet, we don't see him hardly at all, nor do we get any of his opinions on this impending 'war'.

That's the striking part - which I don't get. Here's one of the 3 or so who pulled of the first war.....and his opinion doesn't matter to the American people? (as I see it)

And, in reality ( which I am a realist) - I see Daddy Bush callin all the shots, and Son doin the dirty work. Too long at too high of positions in the nature of what's going on for me to be another head buried in the proverbial sand.

Semper FI

Barndog

wrbones
08-30-02, 07:13 PM
I'm proud of you! You've kept it legit! Using facts and well thought out ( at least thought about!) opinions, and have not used any personal attacks at all to discuss a legitmate concern of us all!


Again! Well done Marines!