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thedrifter
11-23-03, 10:40 AM
M-16 Rifle May Be on Way Out of U.S. Army

By SLOBODAN LEKIC
Associated Press Writer

November 22, 2003, 3:55 PM EST


BAGHDAD, Iraq -- After nearly 40 years of battlefield service around the globe, the M-16 may be on its way out as the standard Army assault rifle because of flaws highlighted during the invasion and occupation of Iraq.

U.S. officers in Iraq say the M-16A2 -- the latest incarnation of the 5.56 mm firearm -- is quietly being phased out of front-line service because it has proven too bulky for use inside the Humvees and armored vehicles that have emerged as the principal mode of conducting patrols since the end of major fighting on May 1.

The M-16, at nearly 40 inches, is widely considered too long to aim quickly within the confines of a vehicle during a firefights, when reaction time is a matter of life and death.

"It's a little too big for getting in and out of vehicles," said Brig. Gen. Martin Dempsey, commander of the 1st Armored Division, which controls Baghdad. "I can tell you that as a result of this experience, the Army will look very carefully at how it performed."

Instead of the M-16, which also is prone to jamming in Iraq's dusty environment, M-4 carbines are now widely issued to American troops.

The M-4 is essentially a shortened M-16A2, with a clipped barrel, partially retractable stock and a trigger mechanism modified to fire full-auto instead of three-shots bursts. It was first introduced as a personal defense weapon for clerks, drivers and other non-combat troops.

"Then it was adopted by the Special Forces and Rangers, mainly because of its shorter length," said Col. Kurt Fuller, a battalion commander in Iraq and an authority on firearms.

Fuller said studies showed that most of the combat in Iraq has been in urban environments and that 95 percent of all engagements have occurred at ranges shorter than 100 yards, where the M-4, at just over 30 inches long, works best.

Still, experience has shown the carbines also have deficiencies. The cut-down barrel results in lower bullet velocities, decreasing its range. It also tends to rapidly overheat and the firing system, which works under greater pressures created by the gases of detonating ammunition, puts more stress on moving parts, hurting its reliability.

Consequently, the M-4 is an unlikely candidate for the rearming of the U.S. Army. It is now viewed as an interim solution until the introduction of a more advanced design known as the Objective Individual Combat Weapon, or OICW.

There is no date set for the entry into service of the OICW, but officers in Iraq say they expect its arrival sooner than previously expected because of the problems with the M-16 and the M-4.

"Iraq is the final nail in the coffin for the M-16," said a commander who asked not to be identified.

The current version of the M-16 is a far cry from the original, which troops during the Vietnam War criticized as fragile, lacking power and range, and only moderately accurate. At the time, a leading U.S. weapons expert even recommended that American soldiers discard their M-16s and arm themselves with the Kalashnikov AK-47 rifle used by their Vietcong enemy.

Although the M16A1 -- introduced in the early 1980s -- has been heavily modernized, experts say it still isn't as reliable as the AK-47 or its younger cousin, the AK-74. Both are said to have better "knockdown" power and can take more of a beating on the battlefield.
Copyright © 2003, The Associated Press

http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/wire/sns-ap-iraq-goodbye-m-16,0,4783290.story?coll=sns-ap-nationworld-headlines


Sempers,

Roger
:marine:

greensideout
11-23-03, 11:28 AM
Makes you wonder, what took them so long?

A near perfect weapon is already out there---the H&K 91, .308 cal., fluted chamber, short barrel.

NEWB
11-23-03, 08:32 PM
Jeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeees, what's next, ray guns and decoder rings. I agree with gso.

MillRatUSMC
11-23-03, 09:58 PM
If I was in charge, I would question. <br />
If the remedy was long term or just a quick fix. <br />
The change might be good for urban fighting. <br />
It might not be good for other type of terrain or methods of...

greensideout
02-28-04, 07:58 PM
Originally posted by greensideout
Makes you wonder, what took them so long?

A near perfect weapon is already out there---the H&K 91, .308 cal., fluted chamber, short barrel.

Well, the H&K 91 would have worked except the military want's to stay with the 5.56 (.223 Rem.).

Talk it over with some folks at H&K and SHASZAM---The XM8---The new replacement rifle for the M 16. It's undergoing tests now but will be a slam dunk.

The new weapon will be called the M8

Cal: 5.56mm

Weight: 6.25 lbs

Length: 30" to 33"

Barrel length: 12.5" (Four variants---9", 12.5", 14.5" and 20")
(The barrel can be changed by the user.)

Mag: 30rounds or a 100 round drum (Can fire more then 15,000 rounds without lube or cleaning)

Rate of fire: 750 rpm

Barrel life: 20,000 rounds

Muzzle velocity: 2,695 feet per second

Bayonet lug: yes

Sighting system: Red dot, laser illuminator and pointer


Source: Army Times research {You get the scoop where you can find it;) )

namgrunt
02-29-04, 03:29 PM
Whatever design they concoct, it should have loose tolerances on the moving action. That was one of the M16's biggest bugs. This bug has obviously survived the original 'fix' back in the 1970s, since it was mentioned in the article.
[quote]
Instead of the M-16, which also is prone to jamming in Iraq's dusty environment, M-4 carbines are now widely issued to American troops.
[end quote]
Whats the difference, the M-4 still uses a receiver housing based on the M-16 - dustcover and all, which is where the 'bug' lives.

Why have the R&D people discarded the 'Bullpup' design? You get to keep the longer barrel for long range accuracy and power, while having a shortened overall length for tight areas, like inside houses and/or vehicles. Britain has had Bullpup designs for its ground forces for some years.

greensideout
02-29-04, 08:09 PM
A video of the XM8 can be seen at---

www.armytimes.com/XM8

namgrunt
03-01-04, 09:40 AM
Interesting video of the XM8. Looks like a grown-up version of the MP5, with new paint. It is good to see it has no "dustcover" which I translate as looser operating tolerances. Since H&K is the outfit developing it, the MP5 silouette makes sense.

Now, all we are missing is a 12 micron pulse laser shoulder weapon at the 40 watt power level. (just kidding)

Thanks Greensideout.

thedrifter
03-02-04, 05:24 PM
Issue Date: March 08, 2004

Editorial
XM8 outguns rivals


The M16 rifle or the M4 carbine? It’s a debate that leaves Marines frothing at the mouth over the pros and cons of each.
But now the Army may have an answer that could end the argument for good — the new XM8 5.56mm assault weapon.

The normally slow-moving Army is evaluating the XM8 at such a lightning-fast clip that the weapon could be renamed the M8 and be in soldiers’ hands within a year.

The Corps, however, is only watching from the sidelines.

Marine Corps Systems Command officials remain committed to buying the latest version of the M16, the A4, through 2008, with selected units still set to receive the M4.

Too bad. The Heckler & Koch-built XM8 could replace both. The modular weapon can be tailored to varying degrees to meet users’ unique requirements.

The Army is tight-lipped about how the XM8 is faring in tests, but we had a rare opportunity to put the weapon through its paces and, pending completion of the Army’s tests, can’t help but ask: Why wait?

Benefiting from modern design and materials, the new weapon improves upon the good points of the M16 and M4: It’s lighter, more rugged, easier to clean and maintain and easier to zero.

It also incorporates technologies such as optical gun sights and infrared laser pointers, eliminating the need for an “add-on” rail. And the XM8’s integrated mounting system stays zeroed for life. The weapon is flexible, offering two collapsible butt stocks and a choice of four barrel lengths. This thing’s made for close-quarters battle.

There isn’t anything wrong with the M16 or M4 (ongoing stopping-power debate aside). Both are time-tested designs that have served the infantryman well.

But the XM8 has advantages over both and flexibility to spare. It is a more modern weapon for the modern infantryman. And Marines deserve the best.

With such an opportunity to leap ahead, the Corps should get in on the Army’s action — now.


XM8 Assault Rifle

http://www.murdoconline.net/archives/000905.html



XM8 Assault Rifle

http://www.hk-usa.com/pages/military-le/rifles-carbines/xm8.html