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Sparrowhawk
11-02-03, 09:41 AM
Nov. 2 -- It was the deadliest day since President Bush declared an end to major combat in Iraq on May 1. NBC's Richard Engel reports from Iraq.

http://a799.g.akamai.net/3/799/388/53da6350fcec35/www.msnbc.com/news/2058989.jpg
U.S. Army soldiers carry remains in a body bag past the burnt-out wreckage of the Chinook helicopter struck by a missile on the outskirts of Fallujah, Iraq, on Sunday.


FALLUJAH, Iraq, Nov. 2 — Insurgents shot down a U.S. Chinook helicopter over western Iraq on Sunday as it carried troops headed for R&R, killing 15 soldiers and wounding 21 in the deadliest single strike against American troops since the start of war.

THE STRIKE by a shoulder-fired missile was a significant new blow in an Iraq insurgency that escalated in recent days — a “tough week,” in the words of U.S. occupation chief L. Paul Bremer. Other U.S. soldiers were reported killed Sunday in ground attacks here and elsewhere in central Iraq.
The only day that saw more U.S. casualties came March 23, during the first week of the invasion that ousted Saddam Hussein.
The U.S. military command in Baghdad raised the casualty figure from the helicopter downing to 15 killed and at least 21 wounded. It said a search was under way at the site for possible other survivors.
Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld mourned the soldiers and declared, “We can win this war. We will win this war.”
“The work in Iraq is difficult. It is tough. It is going to take time. But progress is being made,” the defense secretary said.
Rumsfeld made the comments in an interview Sunday with NBC’s “Meet the Press.”
“Your heart goes out to their families,” Rumsfeld said. “But what they are doing is important ... They are taking the war to the terrorists.”
“The president has said he will stay there (in Iraq) as long as it takes and not one day longer,” Rumsfeld said.

The helicopter was part of a formation of two Chinooks carrying more than 50 passengers to the U.S. base at the former Saddam International Airport, renamed Baghdad International.

“Our initial report is that they were being transported to BIA for R&R flights,” that is, rest and recreation leaves abroad, a U.S. command spokeswoman in Baghdad said. She said at least some were coming from Camp Ridgeway, believed to be an 82nd Airborne Division base in western Iraq.

Witnesses said the second copter hovered over the down craft for some minutes and then set down, apparently to try to help extinguish a fire, but the downed copter was destroyed.

At least a half-dozen Black Hawk helicopters later hovered over the area, and dozens of soldiers swarmed over the site. Injured were still being evacuated at least two hours later.



Local villagers displayed blackened pieces of wreckage to arriving reporters, and in nearby Fallujah townspeople celebrated on the streets.

“The Americans are pigs. We will hold a celebration because this helicopter went down — a big celebration,” said wheat farmer Saadoun Jaralla near the crash site. “The Americans are enemies of mankind.”

In Fallujah, residents said a roadside bomb had hit a convoy of U.S. personnel in civilian vehicles. At least one vehicle was ablaze at the scene, where gloating crowds shouted anti-U.S. slogans. Television pictures showed a gleeful youth wearing a U.S. Army helmet. Others danced on wreckage.

Townspeople claimed four soldiers died in that attack, but U.S. military sources said they couldn’t confirm the report.

BAGHDAD BLAST KILLS SOLDIER
In a separate incident, military sources said a soldier from the 1st Armored Division was killed just after midnight in an explosion in Baghdad.

In Abu Ghraib, local Iraqis said U.S. troops arrived Sunday morning and ordered people to disperse from the marketplace and remove what the Iraqis said were religious stickers from walls. Someone then tossed a grenade at the Americans, witnesses said, and the soldiers opened fire.

The U.S. command said it had no immediate information, but Iraqi witnesses said they believed three or four Americans were killed and six to seven Iraqis were wounded.

The presence of the portable anti-aircraft missiles has represented a significant threat for military aircraft and raised concerns over the security of the few commercial flights in and out of Baghdad International Airport. The U.S.-led coalition has offered rewards of $500 apiece to Iraqis who turn them in.
Saddam playing role in Iraq attacks?

It was the third helicopter known to have been brought down by Iraq’s insurgents since President George W. Bush declared an end to major combat in Iraq on May 1.

A U.S. Army Blackhawk helicopter crash-landed Oct. 25 in Tikrit after being hit by an unknown weapon, injuring one crewmember. On June 12, a U.S. Army Apache attack helicopter was shot down by hostile fire in the western desert, and two crewmembers were rescued unhurt.



The Pentagon had announced Friday it was expanding the home leave program for troops in Iraq, to fly more soldiers out of the region each day and take them to more U.S. airports. As of Sunday, it said, the number of soldiers departing daily via a transit facility in neighboring Kuwait would be increased to 480, from 280.


The workhorse, 10-ton Chinook, which has a crew of four, is the military’s most versatile heavy-lift helicopter, used primarily for troop movements, transporting artillery and similar functions.

The shootdown of the Chinook came after what Bremer, the American administrator in Iraq, called on Saturday “a tough week” in Iraq, beginning with an insurgent rocket attack on Sunday against a Baghdad hotel housing hundreds of his Coalition Provisional Authority staff members. One was killed and 15 wounded in that attack.

A day later, four coordinated suicide bombings in Baghdad killed three dozen people and wounded more than 200, and that was followed by widespread rumors and leaflets threatening an escalation in the anti-U.S. resistance.
Attacks against U.S. forces had already stepped up in the previous week, to an average of 33 a day.

Dan_Mills
11-02-03, 12:40 PM
"At the scene, villagers proudly showed off blackened pieces of wreckage to arriving reporters.

Others celebrated word of the helicopter downing, as well as a fresh attack on U.S. soldiers in Fallujah itself, where witnesses said an explosion struck one vehicle in a U.S. Army convoy at about 9 a.m. Sunday. They claimed four soldiers died, but U.S. military sources said they couldn't confirm the report.”

"This was a new lesson from the resistance, a lesson to the greedy aggressors,'' one Fallujah resident, who wouldn't give his name, said of the helicopter downing. "They'll never be safe until they get out of our country,'' he said of the Americans.“ (Quotes from a report by: TINI TRAN, AP)

Its time, it's time for us to quit forking around, coddling these as*holes and show them who is the boss. It's time to show them the power of a far superior military "Super Power" that has already kicked their butts and has the power to either rebuild or to totally destroy the miserable existence that they know as life. This B.S. of nickel and diming us and sniping on our troops while we are attempting to help them has got to stop!

At some point in time, we either have to kick a bunch of butt or pack our stuff and didi out of there. I don't like the way this is heading, it is starting to smell a lot like a stinking jungle out there. (Are you listening George? Don't let this guy "McNamara" you. )

arzach
11-02-03, 08:55 PM
My thoughts exactly Dan...half-steppin' ain't gonna git it...it's high time for some serious bloodlettin'...Didi'n ain't the answer, gotta bust them pukes a new one, take off the gloves...

Where in Orlando are ya Dan? My bunker is close to 436 and Lk. Underhill....

Rick

Sparrowhawk
11-02-03, 09:09 PM
night bombing into that village, wipe it off the map.

That will stop it at that little corner of the world.

Next ambush, another little town is wiped clean. Pretty soon citizens will want to choose life more then supporting arab fanatics among their midst and will betray them otherwise they will also be paying the price of "War."

MillRatUSMC
11-03-03, 04:18 AM
It's starting to smell like some "jungle" and Beruit of 1983.
How do we apply the hard lessons learn at those places?
All these killings will lead to some taking revenge and the world will cry for those killed and condemn the one's that suffer all the killing before the taking of revenge.
In 1983 there was a vacuum of power as the Israeli's were leaving Lebanon.
Such as exist with our outing of Saddam in Iraq, now there is fighting among the Iraqi's to see which faction will govern after we leave Iraq.
Now the timing of our departure.
Is will be seen as opportunity for some.
To other it will point out a weakness in our defence against terrorism.
How do we find the middle ground in all this mess?
That answer will need a sage.

Semper Fidelis
Ricardo feeling sad on all this loss of life.

PS we won the war, but we're losing the peace.

MillRatUSMC
11-03-03, 11:01 AM
From my message board...The Message for November 2003.
This month is a month of "Thanksgiving" and it's also a month of fasting for those of the Muslim faith.
Ending on the 25th or 26th of November 2003.
Oct. 25, 2003, EID MUBARAK .
Each 'Eid is a Thanksgiving Day where the Muslims assemble in a brotherly and joyful atmosphere to offer their gratitude to Allah for helping them to fulfil their spiritual obligations prior to the 'Eid. This form of thanksgiving is not confined to spiritual devotion and verbal expressions. It goes far beyond that to manifest itself in a handsome shape of social and humanitarian spirit.

The Muslims who have completed the fasting of Ramadhaan express their thanks to Allah by means of distributing alms among the poor and needy on the first 'Eid.

It's also a day of "forgiveness" "peace"...we pray that many will observe these thoughts in Iraq.
Iraq of 2003 is starting to smell like the war we fought in Vietnam in the 60's and 70's.
It also reminds us of Beruit Lebanon of 1983, where there was a vacuum after the Israeli's were pulling out of Lebanon.
In Lebanon many factions were fighting for the leadership of Lebanon.
With the outings of Saddam in Iraq, we left a vacuum that some are trying to exploit.
Seeking to impose their way of thinking on their fellow Iraqi's.
Their belief is that if we kill enough Americans, they will soon seek a way of leaving.
But this war on terrorism, makes that difficult.
We must stay the course till these terrorists get the message that we will stay till they stop their acts of terrorism.

Semper Fidelis and Happy Thanksgiving to All
Ricardo

Osotogary
11-03-03, 03:13 PM
Know this.
I profess that I do not know squat when it comes to actual combat expertese, or for that matter, any topic military related but I have read alot...a very lot , mostly from first hand experiences from Colonels on down.
Allow me just a few simple thoughts.
1) The United States has not only trained but supplied foes who at one time were friends or convienient pawns. When we have trained these "convenient " forces, we have trained them to fight dirty and they have learned well.
2) Why can't we fight dirty? We are the teachers...why can't we fight dirty? Ahhhhhh, Rules of Engagement. Those very rules of engagement have put our Armed Forces at a very distinct and lethal disadvantage. One has to know that those rules of engagement must never (has never) apply to our advisaries.
3) It seems to me that this whole scenario is being played off like a game, of which none of the decision makers have any human stake involvement and it is costing American lives. Conflict, war, police action...whatever is not a game as far as I am concerned. The loss of any American life, wether that person was either under- supplied or ill-trained, superbly trained, awesomely armed , fed and supplied doesn't bother me as much as the fact that that person may have lost his or life due to political or diplomatic convenience, by some me-myself-and I battlefield or homeland representative.
4) I always thought that Military Service was just that...Military Service for the good of these United States. How can enlisted men or women not understand this? How can some of the decision orientated "managing ticket punchers" Officers not know this? Perhaps I have been swayed by what I have read, heard and seen but darnit...the loss one one American life just fries the heck out of me.
I am rather annoyed right now and I have imposed my very simplistic and unsubstantiated opinions on you fine folks but I'm just having a hard time knowing that my loved one(s)may have to be a part of indecisive Rules of engagement. I pray for all of our American Armed Forces daily.
I beg your indulgence. I got alittle rhetorical. Damn, what a loss of life.
Respectfully.
Gary(osotogary)

arzach
11-03-03, 03:55 PM
"
The Muslims who have completed the fasting of Ramadhaan express their thanks to Allah by means of distributing alms among the poor and needy on the first 'Eid.

It's also a day of "forgiveness" "peace"...we pray that many will observe these thoughts in Iraq.
Iraq of 2003 is starting to smell like the war we fought in Vietnam in the 60's and 70's"...Ricardo

Cook's got a good idea...smoke'em..SinLoi

Ramadan...their religion, they don't follow it but they'll kill in the name of it..hipocrisy

Our leaders better make necessary adjustments to operational procedure...without...the interference from the Politicos!

S/F
Rick

Devildogg4ever
11-03-03, 04:46 PM
I'm not going to say much for fear of saying words that are not very nice! I know I'll probably p!ss alot of people off, but it won't be the first time.

The first thing I'd like to say is they need to nuke the place and turn it into a Walmart, biggest one in the world!!

The second thing is they need to make a law that anyone running for President should have prior service in the military! No if, and, or buts about it!!! No prior service, no President! Then make it a law that the secretary of defense, on down also need to have prior service also!! This is a bunch of crap, people running a war thats not a war and most wouldn't make it in the boy scouts!! I believe if these individuals have prior service, things may have been done different!!

The third thing is, screw what the media, or the public think!! Most of them are a candy @ss anyway!! We will lose this war and definatly, more lives worrying over what the public thinks! They are not there, nor most haven't been so they need to go hide in a corner like they do anyway!! Everyone knows the public will b!tch no matter what is done, and they can't do much more then that!! If these people running the war thats not a war, were more concerned about winning it and keeping our military safer instead of worrying about their own future in politics, we could really kick some @ss and get it over with!!

Phantom Blooper
11-03-03, 07:47 PM
By Esther Schrader, Times Staff Writer <br />
<br />
<br />
WASHINGTON — U.S. investigators sought answers today as to why a weapon that Iraqi militants have been using ineffectively for months managed to bring down...

greensideout
11-03-03, 09:44 PM
It's sad but true---a class of 8th graders could run this war better then the odd shaped building in DC.

(1) They have us fighting a small arms war. That puts us on level ground with those that we battle. (We are a super power?)

(2) You cannot live with the enemy and be safe. It's tiime to move from town. If they organize for a fight, we smart bomb their ass.
(We are a super power!)

(3) Move into a remote area. Set up a perimater of defence. Then set up an outer rim of defence with a one mile kill zone. Anyone that enters will be killed and their camel will be smoked! (We are a super power.)

(4) Forget the towns for now, it's too early in the war. Instead have the construction companys build secure bases for our troops. At this point, let the cities rott. Maybe they will learn to be nice. Maybe not, who cares. (We are a super power.)

Who ever heard of camping with the enemy? Let's get out of town and begin effetive opporations. Hit 'em and leave. They will only have each other to kill if we are not there. They are good at that too!

We are a super power, let's go back to fighting like one. The mop up can come later.

Semper Fi

Phantom Blooper
11-05-03, 06:53 AM
Iraq Copter Death Toll Revised To 15
Associated Press
November 5, 2003


WASHINGTON - Fifteen U.S. soldiers were killed in Sunday's Chinook helicopter shot down in Iraq, not 16 as widely reported, the Pentagon said Tuesday.





Lt. Col. Gary Keck, a Pentagon spokesman, said 14 were dead at the scene and one died later of wounds. He could not say when or where the 15th soldier died. On Tuesday the Pentagon completed release of the names of all 15 of the dead, after having notified their families.

U.S. Central Command, which is responsible for military operations in Iraq, issued a statement Sunday from Baghdad that said 15 soldiers were killed in the attack. Later, Pentagon officials said one of the 21 wounded had died, raising the death toll to 16.

Keck said the cause of the confusion was not clear.

It was the deadliest single attack on U.S. forces since the war began in March. The military is investigating the attack, including whether the Chinook was equipped with the standard defenses against missiles.