View Full Version : Recon and Force Recon
Gunstream
09-21-11, 06:21 PM
I know that this dead horse has been kicked more than any of the Marines here would like to see, but I have a couple of inquiries.
I recently switched from my AD contract to a Reserve contract with 4th MarDiv 4th Recon Battalion. I believe it's Charlie Company, and it is out of San Antonio. However, my contract isn't a Recon contract, it's a 3531. My questions are:
1) What does a MotorT guy with a Recon Battalion typically do? Will I have the opportunity to drive transport during missions?
2) Will I be privy to any of the Recon training?
3) If the answer to #2 is no, is it possible for me to lat move to 0321 and attend BRC from within my Battalion?
4) What are the differences in, say, 4th Recon Battalion and a Force Recon Battalion? Does Force Recon fall under the followup MOS's such as 0326? Do they receive additional training? Or do they simply report through a different CoC?
Thank you Marines for any input.
fieldcammies
09-21-11, 07:16 PM
A Motor T Marine at a Recon unit does the same thing as any other unit. You'll be a Motor T operator who will drive the vehicles in support of training. If you ever deploy (you're going to a reserve unit, after all) you may or may not drive in support of missions. However, I can tell you in my experience as a Recon Marine we never had motor T guys drive. The one time we had one attached, he was there to fix the trucks that we broke while driving.
It is unlikely but possible that you will receive some additional training. The most likely training you could receive would be participating in shooting packages not normally included with a 3531's training. You could also possibly go to Airborne school, but if you get there you'll realize it isn't anything special. A quarter of the Army goes there after boot camp. Literally. You definitely will NOT go to BRC or any Recon-specific schools such as MCD (dive) or MMPC (free fall) as a motor T Marine.
Don't get wrapped around the axle with "Force" and "Battalion". On the reserve side they use different names for things. It might still be called "4th Force" but I'm not sure. You're going reserves. You'll spend more time being a civilian than driving a 7-ton.
As for Lat moving, I do not know how hard that is within the reserves, but it is possible within the active duty side. That being said, pick a goal and go for it, because the Marine Corps will be getting smaller and opportunities will dry up. If being a Recon Marine is what you want, I suggest you sack up and take the challenge.
As stated,highly unlikely a large-noisy truck will be used to transport Recon units
If Recon is a goal-standby for serious training
Work through your chain of command and ask what do you need to do to get a lat move
Downsizing forces has dried up a lot of opportunities so you may be waiting awhile
Meanwhile- you have a job,be thankful for that
SWRIGHT0321
09-22-11, 03:42 AM
As a Recon Marine of the 4th division let me tell you exactly what motor t does. you maintenance the vehicles every day and clean it up after Recon drives it. Any driving that we need for transport or missions, we do ourselves. Your sole duty in a Recon unit... is to support Recon... not work with them. We only operate with 0321s and sometimes a very experienced 0621. AS FOR WANTING RECON TRAINING. You should probably keep that to yourself because it ****es us off when people want to live the Recon dream but don't want to wake up to the nightmare it really is. If you want Recon training you better damn well start with BRC. Why should you go to all the high speed schools just so you can wear some wings and bubble while you pretend youre GI JOE on facebook? and here is some knowledge on force recon that most marines dont even know. Recon supports the commanders mission of whatever division they fall under. Usually an asset to support infantry but not always. The glorified FORCE RECON is part of the MEF (Marine Expeditionary FORCE) and are more readily deployable so they need more training because they don't have the luxury of an extended predeployment work up. Therefore they support a different mission and have a different (better) budget for training. Some of my buddies got orders to battalion and some got orders to force. They all graduated the same class BRC class.
Ice Man
09-23-11, 06:46 PM
There's no such thing as a Force Recon Battalion. They're a company sized element, and attached to the Recon Battalion that is attached to Division. They were attached to the MEF back in the day, but not anymore. They're experienced operators chosen from the 0321 pool, usually with years of experience under their belt.
I don't know anything about the reserves, but on Active Duty lat moves are limited to certain times. As a first term Marine, you usually have to wait a couple of years before they'll let you lat move. You just got out of school, and they want their money's worth and need you to fill the billet you were designated for. Why not just change to an 0321 contract now? Probably a lot easier to do it that way.
A couple of things. Several years ago, I believe Force was disbanded, and brought back. Force was blended into Joint in Tampa, and Marsoc became the new elite of the Corps. Marsoc is based at Stone Bay, on Lejeune. I recently toured their facilities. Quite impressive, and I'm glad they are on our side.
fieldcammies
10-03-11, 02:43 PM
As a Recon Marine of the 4th division let me tell you exactly what motor t does. you maintenance the vehicles every day and clean it up after Recon drives it. Any driving that we need for transport or missions, we do ourselves. Your sole duty in a Recon unit... is to support Recon... not work with them. We only operate with 0321s and sometimes a very experienced 0621. AS FOR WANTING RECON TRAINING. You should probably keep that to yourself because it ****es us off when people want to live the Recon dream but don't want to wake up to the nightmare it really is. If you want Recon training you better damn well start with BRC. Why should you go to all the high speed schools just so you can wear some wings and bubble while you pretend youre GI JOE on facebook? and here is some knowledge on force recon that most marines dont even know. Recon supports the commanders mission of whatever division they fall under. Usually an asset to support infantry but not always. The glorified FORCE RECON is part of the MEF (Marine Expeditionary FORCE) and are more readily deployable so they need more training because they don't have the luxury of an extended predeployment work up. Therefore they support a different mission and have a different (better) budget for training. Some of my buddies got orders to battalion and some got orders to force. They all graduated the same class BRC class.
Maybe if you'd like to live the real "Recon Dream" you'd come active duty with the rest of us instead of patrolling the mean streets of Alameda, you boot. You talk a lot of trash for someone with no experience (yes, I looked you up). Give the kid some information, and be on your way.
SNusbaumer
10-03-11, 04:59 PM
Nov issue of Leatherneck will have an article on Force Recon. I wrote it.
Nov issue of Leatherneck will have an article on Force Recon. I wrote it.
Thanks! I look forward to reading it. Hopefully, it will clear up a lot of these young poolees, boots, and young Marines have about Recon. Seems everyone has a different idea of what Recon is all about.
SNusbaumer
10-03-11, 07:03 PM
Right, there are a lot of different conceptions of recon, especially Force. The article will clear up some of the confusion. For instance, FR is only attached to DR administratively, operationally it's under MEF. And in the near future it will be totally separate from DR. There is a history of problems when FR and DR are combined in one unit yet have two different commanders.
chulaivet1966
10-04-11, 11:16 AM
Right, there are a lot of different conceptions of recon, especially Force. The article will clear up some of the confusion. For instance, FR is only attached to DR administratively, operationally it's under MEF. And in the near future it will be totally separate from DR. There is a history of problems when FR and DR are combined in one unit yet have two different commanders.
Yes....in BOLD....that's my take on it too.
Some of the DEP poolies are steeped in some preconceived glamor of it all which makes me chuckle when they start spouting specifics.
What is that cliche?....damn...uh....'young, dumb and full of (?)'
It's been a long time since my era but my good buddy was with FR in 1966 and in Vietnam the same time I was.
Our USMC seemed simpler back then.....:) but I've been wrong in the past.
Should your article hit the internet I'd be interested to read it also.
Carry on.....
SNusbaumer
10-04-11, 12:31 PM
Yes I think the Corps was simpler then, and the world. That's probably because we were Y,D, and FS. When you are then you just don't see all the complexities.
FR is a lot different today, I touch on the historical change that happened, why it was discontinued, and why it was brought back. Would like to hear your feedback on the article. It will be out the end of this month, I'll see if I can post it here.
chulaivet1966
10-04-11, 12:58 PM
FR is a lot different today, I touch on the historical change that happened, why it was discontinued, and why it was brought back. Would like to hear your feedback on the article. It will be out the end of this month, I'll see if I can post it here.
I'm surprised that FR was discontinued at all (also from previous posts here) unless there was some thoughts that Army SF were enough for the missions at hand in contemporary times....I don't know.
No FR in the USMC contradicts my impression of our elite role(s) in combat or special ops....times have changed that's for danm sure.
Hope you can post the article here.:beer: on me.
Carry on.....
SNusbaumer
10-04-11, 01:07 PM
FR was stood up after, I believe, 2 years. It was stood down to transfer men to MARSOC, some of the FR, generally the less experienced, were transferred to Battalion Recon where they formed deep recon platoons. But FR is back, back because they perform missions that are important -- dedicated e&e for the MEF commanders.
chulaivet1966
10-04-11, 01:29 PM
FR was stood up after, I believe, 2 years. It was stood down to transfer men to MARSOC, some of the FR, generally the less experienced, were transferred to Battalion Recon where they formed deep recon platoons. But FR is back, back because they perform missions that are important -- dedicated e&e for the MEF commanders.
Glad to hear that (bold).
I was also under the impression that DivRecon was much different than FR?
DivRec more of the admin/supply/support/logistics functions and FR doing the field recon.
Holy sh!t....being a Marine NOW would be a much different experience and require a modified (:)) mindset than my experience back in the Pleistocene Epoch.
Carry on....
SNusbaumer
10-04-11, 02:22 PM
They certainly are different, but DR, like FR, primary mission is recon. The experience and skills level are higher for FR (one has to be at least a corporal, and there are only a few of them) and the primary mission is deep reconnaissance, which today can be really deep, whereas DR operate much closer to the infantry. FR does strategic recon, as well as other special operation tasks, including Direct Action, whereas DR is mostly battalion and regimental recon. So schooling for FR is much more. Something like 3/4s of the FR recruits were first in DR, the rest came from a grunt units. But any MOS can go to FR Selection, which is more demanding than DR selection.
chulaivet1966
10-04-11, 05:40 PM
skills level are higher for FR (one has to be at least a corporal, and there are only a few of them) and the primary mission is deep reconnaissance,
Wow...one has to be a corporal.
I don't think it was that way in my time but I could be in err.
My FR buddy (past tense) was not a corporal.
To qualify.....this FR person I refer to has not a been a friend of mine since 1970 for a reason that all here would be appalled with.
Carry on.....
This I know. The Marines in FR during my period were the best of the best period. They were well trained and qualified, as well as respected. During Vietnam, their mission was often not clearly defined, and the lines were indistinguishable between FR and DR. Simply put, the sentiment was that various Commanding Generals didn't know how to properly utilize this valuable asset. Because of this FR suffered at the expense of various Generals.
I may be mistaken, but I believe it was Col. Ed Wheeler who was instrumental in re-establishing the lines and missions of FR and utilization of their assets to the fullest.
The bottom line to me is that FR's contributions to the Corps is monumental, and while FR is not the new girl at the dance; there's still a long line of folks who want to dance with her.
chulaivet1966
10-04-11, 06:12 PM
This I know. The Marines in FR during my period were the best of the best period. They were well trained and qualified, as well as respected. During Vietnam, FR's contributions to the Corps is monumental, and while FR is not the new girl at the dance; there's still a long line of folks who want to dance with her.
I couldn't agree more:thumbup:
BTW....do any FR here know a Bill Whittier?
PM me if you like.
I've had much dialogue with him in the last two years because he was familiar with the Nong Son coal mine event I've mentioned in the past.
Don't mean to hijack....back to topic.
SNusbaumer
10-04-11, 07:03 PM
When I was with Force Reon, II MEF this summer for the article, they had one corporal, a new guy, who in a week would be a Sgt. FR wants the experienced, with several deployments under their belt, an established record of excellence, and then they'll look you over. Since most come from Div Recon, they already know the guys. But you can come from any MOS. Note, it's unusual for someone to pass Selection the first time.
chulaivet1966
10-04-11, 07:11 PM
FR wants the experienced, with several deployments under their belt, an established record of excellence, and then they'll look you over. Since most come from Div Recon, they already know the guys. But you can come from any MOS. Note, it's unusual for someone to pass Selection the first time.
Good....that means (hopefully) that training requirements/standards have not been reduced or dumbed down for this elite role in the USMC.
I was in III MEF during my era.
Carry on....
When I was with Force Reon, II MEF this summer for the article, they had one corporal, a new guy, who in a week would be a Sgt. FR wants the experienced, with several deployments under their belt, an established record of excellence, and then they'll look you over. Since most come from Div Recon, they already know the guys. But you can come from any MOS. Note, it's unusual for someone to pass Selection the first time.
I hope that you had the opportunity to talk with the folks over at the SOCNET web site. FR is part of that site, and Administered by FR folks from all eras.
Chulaivet, maybe you could ask over at SOCNET if they know the person you are looking for. Just an idea.
chulaivet1966
10-04-11, 07:55 PM
Chulaivet, maybe you could ask over at SOCNET if they know the person you are looking for. Just an idea.
Oh sh!t....
I forgot about that site as Brother Apache told me about that one.
Wasn't sure if I'd fit over there but I'll revisit that thought.
Thanks for the reminder.
Carry on.....:beer: belly up, I'm buying.