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Popsicle
07-28-11, 01:58 PM
I'm the dad of a 2nd LT currently going through TBS. After going through range week my 2nd Lt qualified sharpshooter with the M16 and marksman with pistol. She is down on herself for not shooting expert. She feels that it will make it harder for her to earn respect from her peers and enlisted personnel as she eventually moves into the fleet.

As a dad I've told her not to dwell on this too much as shooting like a lot of athletic endeavors can be made better with practice and some individual instruction. A year from now when she re-qualifies I do not doubt her scores will be better.

My question is am I looking at this issue correctly? A brand new 2nd LT not qualifying expert is not that big a deal. However, after a couple years in the Marine Corps a young officer not qualifying as expert would become a bigger deal.

cucinae5
07-28-11, 02:00 PM
I don't think it is a big deal at all. I have seen Majors and Sgt. Majors with marksman and sharpshooter badges.

Just my opinion though.

iamspartacus
07-28-11, 02:14 PM
I don't put much stock in range scores, just so long as you pass. And I'd imagine it's that way for a lot of Marines. Besides, Marines don't really talk about that stuff. Sure, people will notice in the rare events she is in her dress/service uniform. But it's not like people will treat her differently. For me, I care more about the leadership quality of the officers above me than the type of shooting badge they wear on their chest. If you're an A-hole, having an expert badge doesn't make you any less of an a-hole. And vice versa.

cucinae5
07-28-11, 02:17 PM
couldn't agree more.....

Mongoose
07-28-11, 02:50 PM
In my day, didn't see too many officers shooting. Leading a plt. of Marines was a Lt. main job. They left the shooting to us.

03Mike
07-28-11, 02:51 PM
Pretty much everyone who has ever qualified knows that there are a million variables that go into your score. Even folks who qualified expert know that there's a fine line between the crossed rifles (or pistols) and the sharpshooter badge or the pizza box. There is a lot of skill involved on qualifying expert - and a good dose of luck too.

In other words, as was said above, it really doesn't mean much in comparison to what kind of leader she is. On most days, the marksmanship badges are hanging in the closet and most folks don't see them.

cucinae5
07-28-11, 03:15 PM
i agree.. i shot marksman in boot, then sharpshooter, then expert.. all a combination of skill and luck/weather conditions. i didn't shoot any different all three times that i could tell. will let you know what i shoot the next time around. lolololol

cucinae5
07-28-11, 03:18 PM
I did it the other way around, expert in boot, marksman next time around. :)



that will be my luck next time around... ha ha ha ha

lcplwilson
07-28-11, 03:33 PM
You guys need to fire the M1. Couldn't miss with that baby! And had stopping power. And I agree with just about all comments above.

Popsicle
07-28-11, 04:18 PM
Appreciate the feedback. Wanted to make sure I was not giving her poor advice.

My 2nd LT fully understands leadership and taking care of her troops is the true measure that she will be judged by. Fortunately she has always been a natural leader and has been recognized as such by her platoon Captain. So far TBS is going well for her and even on the hard days she still tells me she is exactly where she wants to be and is living her dream.

She is massive over-achiever and has wanted to be a Marine since she was 12.

hussaf
07-28-11, 05:38 PM
Its actually going to suck and be pretty tough for her for a few reasons. Officers are very competative, especially junior officers. Things like run times and shooting scores are more talked about than in the enlisted ranks. Officers are usually very young and competative people...they want to know what their peers are doing and how well they are doing it.

Being female. There is a stigma in the Marine Corps that females are generally poor marksmen. Shooting subpar as a female tends to perpetuate that stigma, and that can be upsetting.

The combination of these two factors make it kind of a tough situation. But its certainly not the end of the world. She will get a chance to shoot again, it just takes practice, especially the pistol. Hopefully she will be fine, plenty of people go from shooting poorly to consistently getting expert. Its really mostly mental.

FistFu68
07-28-11, 07:33 PM
:evilgrin: Being a Marksman meant She still Hit the Target not Dead Center but still Enough too take the Enemy out!!!I never saw a Gook 500 Yrd's away,when the Chit Hit the Fan they were Right on Top of Us,that's when We Marines all Shot EXPERT.You Daughter will just do fine,I've seen UNQ'S within a Year go from that too Expert with Both the Pistol and Rifle.GoodLuck to You and Your Daughter,Thank Her for serving our Nation and GodSpeed to Both of You.Semper Fidelis :beer: :iwo:

waitinferage21
07-28-11, 10:14 PM
No one's going to think twice about it. It looks good on boards and such... but other than that. Not a big deal in the respect category.

03Mike
07-29-11, 09:20 AM
Its actually going to suck and be pretty tough for her for a few reasons. Officers are very competative, especially junior officers. Things like run times and shooting scores are more talked about than in the enlisted ranks. Officers are usually very young and competative people...they want to know what their peers are doing and how well they are doing it.


The sergeant here raises a good point -- she'll catch much more flak about it at TBS (from her fellow lieutenants) than she will in the fleet, but even when she hits the fleet she'll take more grief and "good natured ribbing" from her fellow lieutenants than she ever will from anyone else.

Popsicle
07-29-11, 10:55 AM
Truly appreciate the feedback.

In our conversation she was much more concerned about earning respect from the enlisted ranks rather than her officer peers in regards to her shooting. As far as "good natured ribbing" she will give as good as she gets. She is very used to being in a predominately male environment and has a long track record of outperforming the majority of her male counterparts both mentally and physically.

CplLakota
07-29-11, 11:39 AM
I reckon things have really changed since i was in. My attitude was and so was my family and my Drill Instructor. Expert Rifle and later when I made Corporal Expert Pistol was the only way to go. In boot I enjoyed shooting. it was competitive, and I wanted the highest score i could get. I dont understand being satisfied with just qualifying.

hussaf
07-29-11, 12:09 PM
Yeah, elisted folks under her are not going to care at all about their officer's shooting ability. That's only a concern if the officer is a spaz and becomes a safety violator, and thats more for Table 2, and HRP type shooting.

03Mike
07-29-11, 01:06 PM
I'm not sure anyone said anything about being satisifed with just qualifying - but in this case, once Qual Day is over, you can only practice and train and work on it until you qual next year.

Personally, I never qualified less than expert with the rifle - over ten years my scores ranged from 221 to 246 - and I was never satisified with my score. I don't think that it's in a Marine's nature to be satisified with with their qual scores, let alone getting by with "just qualifying". If I had ever managed a 250, I'm sure I would have started counting "X"s

waitinferage21
07-29-11, 01:11 PM
Well I'm stationed at TBS right now :D probably saluted her 25x already.

Blutic
08-01-11, 06:39 PM
Nobody cares about rifle scores for officers. PT, different story.

Red Patch 1345
08-02-11, 12:53 PM
I definately wouldn't let your daughter's range score bother her any.

I shot Pizza box in Boot and then after attending my Battalions Rifle Range Coach school I shot Expert twice after that and Sharpshooter with the pistol.

kabar1
08-02-11, 02:35 PM
as long as she takes care of her fellow Marines and leads from the front it dont really matter what she shoots.she will do better next time.

MD8724
08-02-11, 06:08 PM
I reckon things have really changed since i was in. My attitude was and so was my family and my Drill Instructor. Expert Rifle and later when I made Corporal Expert Pistol was the only way to go. In boot I enjoyed shooting. it was competitive, and I wanted the highest score i could get. I dont understand being satisfied with just qualifying.


In August 2008 in Oki, I believe Hansan range (?), I was satisfied with just making it through the range. We had around 15 heat casualties each day. I remember almost passing out in the prone. Anyways, I shot just low enough to not be able to get expert with the table 2. Didn't matter because by the time I was eligible for a cutting score to Sgt I shot again. Sometimes, if the time is right, your scores don't honestly mean ****. Maybe I am different from you folks, but when something doesn't mean ****, I can't say I care much about it in return.


Oh, and 03Mike, I once shot a 246 as well. On pre-qual day in boot. Ha. :)

LandsNGrooves
08-03-11, 06:17 PM
Truly appreciate the feedback.

In our conversation she was much more concerned about earning respect from the enlisted ranks rather than her officer peers in regards to her shooting. As far as "good natured ribbing" she will give as good as she gets. She is very used to being in a predominately male environment and has a long track record of outperforming the majority of her male counterparts both mentally and physically.

To be honest, a enlisted guy would never mention her badge to her face, unless she's in the fleet going back to the range and he's coaching her. If he is good he'll want to see that databook from her 1st qual.

Even tho our rifle scores are a judge of pure marksmanship, which is different then fighting with a rifle, its still one more thing everyone is judged on.Haircut, sleeves, etc.

pocatellodave
08-06-11, 08:55 PM
Kind of odd, but in boot camp we had M-14s, then at ITR at Camp Geiger, they gave us M-1s for the six weeks there.

Then afterwards, back to the M-14.

Was not easy to make the transition to the M-1. A good and reliable weapon, though, agreed.

I shot Sharpshooter in boot with a M-14.The frikken PMI got me all tied in knots,and I couldn't hit crap!Had to qualify again in 1964 at the Marine Barracks in Bremerton ,WA.We had to qualify with the .45 as well beings we carried them while on duty aboard the USS Kittyhawk.No one messing with me and I only dropped 11 out of the bulls eye, 239 with a M-1.Nice tight groups.I also qualified Expert with the WWI .45!!I never gave shooting at paper targets in gawd awful positions much concern.Shooting at the enemy,now we want to hit what we are aiming at!
Semper Fi

kabar1
08-07-11, 08:12 AM
in boot we were issued M-14s went to ITR they gave us M-16s they were ok but give me my 14 back

Tennessee Top
08-07-11, 10:44 AM
Qualified expert with the M-14, M-16, .45mm pistol, 9mm pistol, and .38cal pistol (on the FBI academy range at Quantico for MSG school). Out of those the M-14 was the easiest to shoot expert and the hardest to hump (heaviest).