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turok
07-16-11, 09:16 AM
Am I the only one who thinks that the overemphasis on "looking" like a Marine is a complete perversion of what it means to be a warrior? I say this because I joined four years ago to be a warrior. Coming from Los Angeles I didn't know much about the military, and I had no idea that I would be spending most of my time picking up trash and trying to convince myself that boot camp and anual rifle quals validate my paycheck. People in my MOS should not be called warriors. Not only CAN our entire job be done by civilians, but most of the important work that is sent to us IS done by contractors. It breaks my heart to go home on leave and to be proudly introduced to people that my loved ones know as a "Marine," when I know that what I do will never live up to their preconceived expectations of what a Marine is.

I think it's sad that most of you who read this will probably immediately label me as a turd. You're entitled to your opinions but I have tried my hardest at everything I do during my enlistment. I run a 300 on both PFT and CFT, shoot expert at the range, consistently read and study to improve my cognitive ability, and even as a meritorious CPL you can find me on my hands and knees scrubbing right next to my lances. I've done everything I can to make myself as close to what my family expects from one of the "few and "proud." I am a rifle coach, brig chaser, combat lifesaver, and every other possible qual that a pog can have to do something more "greenside." I even went through MARSOC A&S and passed, although I wasn't selected to go to ITC.

I don't mean to insult any of you guys who truly think that every Marine is a rifleman, but I for one cannot keep lying to friends, family, and myself by allowing them to believe that. At some point you have to wake up and realize that the PX workers make about the same bottom line contribution to the cause that many of us do, the only difference being the style of their uniform and the fact that they don't have to do field day.

Despite all of this I continue to do my job and follow orders, I just think that the image we portray to the public needs to be adjusted so respect can be given where it is due, and not inflated where it is unwarranted.

I would like to know how Marines from every demographic ("motards" "turds" "sncos" "pogs" "grunts") feel about this topic, just please keep it intelligent and leave the recruiting slogans at the door.

Mad respect to those of you who know you deserve it, you live a rough life.

BGW
07-16-11, 09:59 AM
Your over thinking this way to much. We all have our roles to play in the Marine Corps, not all of us can be those gun slinging self proclaim bad asses we call grunts who think they are better then everyone else. The rest of us are support, because in all of everything. No one can do everything by them selves.

turok
07-16-11, 10:12 AM
I wouldn't mind it if we were more upfront with the difference between the gunslingers and support. Most of the country, and even most of the Marine Corps, are either in ignorance or denial of just how much more a gunslinger has to sacrifice.

BGW
07-16-11, 10:22 AM
I personally dont fu-cking care, people that are not in the Corps, or not in any active military branch, arent really on the basis to know how things really work. There is no reason for you to care, so why? You dont have to make the Marine Corps define who you are. If you want it to, then why not try going for that sweet adorable little gun slingers that every one pictures when they hear Marines?

turok
07-16-11, 11:15 AM
There is no reason for you to care, so why?

Honor and pride, and not the kind that you get from asking the barber for a high and tight.

Old Marine
07-16-11, 11:24 AM
If its not to big a problem and if you want more answers to your questions please read the site rules and fill out your profile. I do not think it takes a "Gunslinger", to comply with the site rules.

LandsNGrooves
07-16-11, 11:46 AM
PM sending

1st off, can you get back to A&S and try again? If yes, Do it. If no. . . .


You could try for EOD or Recon.

You could go to the Army. They dont offer 18xray contracts to prior service(makes no sense, I know), but you could go in as a CAV scout or 11B and try to get to selection from there. Rangers also have small recon element that are usually guys w 6-8 years @ a Ranger BN.

Also, where are you? .

One of my shooting buddies is a former 18x guy and work at T1G now in memphis. He said NG SF (19th and 20th group) get deployed as much as the active groups. 19th group has a company upstate in Roanoke NC.

joseywales
07-16-11, 11:49 AM
turok reminds of of another jackasss who posted last week----discontented....Sgt Leprechaun deleted it after reading 2 sentences

hussaf
07-16-11, 12:01 PM
Sounds like you need to Lat-move. I felt pretty much the same exact way....like I wasn't in the military at all. So the day I picked up Sgt, in 2006, I went to a selection board for a different MOS (used to be a mechanic). Since then my deployments have been more fulfilling, and I've felt I have contributed more to the 'war effort' than in the past. If you spend enough time in the military you will simply become numb to how messed up everything is....people don't even give an honest effort to justify their existence anymore. Their concerns are centered on their specific shops, and the daily routine they've gotten themselves into....if you come out of the field, whether training on LeJeune, or patrolling in Sangin District, and have to fight with people to get a new ID card, or get an SRB audit, because they need their Sunday off and only work a few hours a day. There are so many people here on Camp LNK that simply don't produce more value than the money that is spent feeding, air conditioning, and paying them.

PJones64
07-16-11, 12:19 PM
I dont think you people are reading the OP very well. He is a whiner, pure and simple. Ashamed of his job in the Corps. Then put in for a discharge.

turok
07-16-11, 12:20 PM
Yes I can go back to A&S, I considered going back, as well as recon, lat moves, and Army SF. I didn't know that prior service couldn't do 18x, that was one of the options I was looking at if college doesn't work out for me. I am still considering national guard sf, and coincidentally my current girlfriend is a ng recruiter ( pure coincidence as hard as that may to believe, I still haven't even met the guy.)

I personally have decided that the Marine Corps is not for me, it's just far too political.

My hat still goes off to the man in the sand and the warrior spending 11/12 months a year away from his family in training and/or in theater.
Again I'm not trying to disrespect anyone, but if you're going to reply, please keep it relevant and intelligent. I was exposed to the warrior culture of the usmc, the one that I naively thought I was originally joining, while I was at a&s. It's just impossible to leave something like that without having a very different view of the conventional military.

Baker1971
07-16-11, 12:22 PM
Sounds to me like old turok aint gonna be happy anywhere, less he gets his own way and doesnt have to lower himself to pick up trash. Needs to be a three star general, for starters, or maybe just settle for Sgt Major

turok
07-16-11, 12:25 PM
people don't even give an honest effort to justify their existence anymore. Their concerns are centered on their specific shops, and the daily routine they've gotten themselves into....if you come out of the field, whether training on LeJeune, or patrolling in Sangin District, and have to fight with people to get a new ID card, or get an SRB audit, because they need their Sunday off and only work a few hours a day. There are so many people here on Camp LNK that simply don't produce more value than the money that is spent feeding, air conditioning, and paying them.

Exactly.

turok
07-16-11, 12:27 PM
Sounds to me like old turok aint gonna be happy anywhere, less he gets his own way and doesnt have to lower himself to pick up trash. Needs to be a three star general, for starters, or maybe just settle for Sgt Major

I've got no problem picking up trash, I've done it for a while now and still do it better than your average gi joe, I just don't feel I should be thanked for my service for it.

turok
07-16-11, 12:35 PM
I'm not here to argue, please refrain from the usual sarcasm and snide insults. I posted this to know if there is another side to this that I may not be seeing. I agree that everyone has a part to play, and somebody still has to turn the wrenches and manage the paychecks, however, can't these jobs be done by civilians? Even those that are forward deployed? Should someone that spends their entire enlistment ordering parts and picking up paperwork receive military honors and allowances? My opinion is no, but like I said I want to know if there's another side to this.

Baker1971
07-16-11, 12:41 PM
thanks for telling us what to refrain from. Just do your job or get out of the Corps. Sounds to me like you are way too immature to even be picking up trash if you cant hack it and insist on having some macho MOS. Should have joined the French Foreign Legion for the glory of it. I cant stand the young whining generation, grow a pair or get out of the Corps

LandsNGrooves
07-16-11, 12:44 PM
I really dont understand all the posts in here. How could any of you be agaisnt someone trying to better themselves? This guy clearly dosent hit the rack at night wanting to get up and doing it again. Why not offer him advice instead of posting something that dosent further his quest?

Baker, you have failed to understand his post, bc being a 3 star or star sarge is the opposite of what he's looking for.

LandsNGrooves
07-16-11, 12:51 PM
if you cant hack it and insist on having some macho MOS.


Your really failing to understand. He never claimed he cant hack it. He been "hacking" it for 4 years, and wants something more out of his service.

joseywales
07-16-11, 02:11 PM
like what? unbelievable. are you his guardian or something?

Old Marine
07-16-11, 02:17 PM
like what? unbelievable. are you his guardian or something?

He's his Sea Lawyer. Used to be we had one in every outfit. Now it seems that these days they have really multiplied.:D

bootlace15
07-16-11, 02:18 PM
WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!I don't have anything else to say........................

Marine1011
07-16-11, 02:34 PM
He wants more out of his service? Sounds like the service wants and needs more out of him, minus the crying, that is

You want to get something more outta something, hell you gotta give more, you decide what you get out of it, you don't end up wishing you aint in, whyd you even go in unless you thoughjt it was all glory

LandsNGrooves
07-16-11, 02:38 PM
You guys are superstars. If I ever met any of you, I'll buy you a Zima.

advanced
07-16-11, 03:08 PM
I'm just an old bush Marine out of the Nam. Being Marine Corps Infantry may seem glamorous to you new kids in the suck now, but believe me, it isn't. If you are put in battle, and you survive, you are forever changed. Way too many prices to pay for the "glamor" and rarely will you meet "like kind" if you have a clue what that means.

I have no problem with support people in the MC. Believe me, there were many times during my enlistment that I wished I could have had a cake walk. It just never happened to any of us.

If you don't like your job, as has been said lateral move or leave when your enlistment is up. The biggest problem I have with everything that you said is the part about you being an NCO and working at field day with your lances and such. How can those that follow you respect you. Act like the NCO that you say that you are.

Be proud of being a Marine. In my day I was at places where even the cooks and the Remington raiders were put on line with us because all the "glamor" had killed so many of us off. S/F

Apache
07-16-11, 03:22 PM
Advanced said it,glory is something the boots are after till they loose a friend
Or body parts.
Be proud of what you do
If you don't like your job go for a lat move
How many jobs does the Corps have ? Thousands ?

tripledog
07-16-11, 03:41 PM
Personally I think you have a mental problem. If you dont know the difference in being a Marine, and being a civilian, then you should be a civilian.

I dont begrudge my fellow warriors who do the , as you say "shlt work". If you dont know why being in the service, any service, is different and proud, YOU HAVE SERIOUS PROBLEM.

Just go away and live in your fantasy world.

YLDNDN6
07-16-11, 04:09 PM
I must be one of the glory stealers he's talking about. I never kicked in any doors or fired a howitzer into an enemy position or did anything that would be considered typical of what the image of the Corps is. I never lived a day of my life under fire or in remote parts of the world where most everyone who lives there would like to see me dead. I wasn't treated like crap when I came back stateside. You would not have ever seen my job on a recruiting poster. But, I'll tell you what. There was not one minute of any day that went by that I was not proud of being a Marine, and doing the non-glorious job that I did in the service of my country. And, quite frankly, I find it disturbing that any individual would try to plant the seed of self-doubt in us non-combat Marines by questioning whether we deserve to be thanked for our service. You're VanDam right we do. I'm sorry that you are not happy in your MOS, but there are options to explore for you to get more satisfaction out of your service. Your guilt and feelings of inadequacy are your own, and I honestly hope you can Lat move or in some way find some measure of self-respect, but, seriously, don't sit there and ask me if I deserve to be thanked, or anyone else who didn't/doesn't have a glory MOS. It's just plain disrespectful. Carry on.

BGW
07-16-11, 08:15 PM
I am sure we all go through the same thing you go through, though in different ways. I didnt like just being support for others so they can do the real missions that were tasked to us. For the longest time I thought about how to lat move, where I would go how I would do it. MARSOC seemed to be the easiest to lat move in to, all you did was go to A&S and hope you make it.

But after a while I saw all the other opportunities that were presented to me with different directions that actually had better chances of producing some good results. (like how you got ****ed for not being selected) I then abandon the whole idea about trying to do the real Marine Corps side of things. Marine Corps gave me some good skills, knowledge and experiances how ever I am not going to let it define who I am. I have aspirations I want to reach and that doesnt involve me being in the Corps. For me its a damn well sturdy stepping stone for my next stage in life.

If your still so gung ho about this, then why not continue trying? Its also pretty ****ed up how you are trying to suggest that only combat MOS Marines deserve to be recognize while the rest should be shunned. We're different.... but we still need each other, not everything can be replaced with civilian contractors.

Marine84
07-16-11, 09:08 PM
I didn't know much about the military, and I had no idea

Here lies your problem. If you had gone in without that preconceived notion, maybe things would be better for you. It's understandable, it happens. A lot of us had no idea what we were getting into either but, we didn't have that preconceived notion of what we thought we were getting into.

As for being thanked for your service, just say you appreciate it, shake a few hands, and forget about it.

advanced
07-17-11, 08:02 AM
Believe me, back in the day no one thanked us for our service. Many experienced quite the opposite. I for one just never told anyone what I had done or even that I had been in the military.

Today many people try to thank me, I don't like it and because of 40+ years the other way I don't need it. I try to accept it because my guess is it makes them feel better about themselves.

advanced
07-17-11, 08:13 AM
Russ, thank you for your service

Yeah, thanks Dave. I hope you are really feeling "Good" about yourself now.

Mongoose
07-17-11, 09:33 AM
Well, I want to thank you both. Especially my brother Russ, whom I got close enough to in the Arizona. I could smell his stinking azz. My honor to you both. I dont feel any better having said that. It just comes from the heart with out reason.

haebyungdae
07-17-11, 04:58 PM
Yes, the overemphasis on "looking good" is a perversion and the Marine Corps Institute labels it by a term called "careerism." But this doesn't really apply in what you are talking about.

Some Marines recommended a let move for this Marine. I would disagree and would more agree with the other recommendation of him getting out. This is due to the fact that he has already worked up the idea of what a "real Marine" is to such a high standard that it would be almost impossible for him to achieve it. This is my opinion and the OP can correct me if I am wrong.

Contractors? Really? No way. There is little to no accountability on their performance, at least from what I have seen. Maybe federal employees are better, but there is still not enough emphasis placed on results, or at least the right results.

Glamour in one's job is really in the eye of the beholder. Sitting in front of a computer all day longer, sometimes for the excess of 12 hours may seem to some as not very glamorous, but I find my job to be very fruitful and whatnot. A large part of getting the most out of your military service is your perception of your work. Why is job (which was not let know to the rest of us) not glamorous or fruitful? Every Marine regardless of their job should feel some sort of pride in what they do. You doing your job ensures that someone else can do theirs.

At least the work of most Marines is known by the public and if you want to know politics come work in strategic level intelligence, that is some politics for ya.

chulaivet1966
07-17-11, 05:25 PM
Believe me, back in the day no one thanked us for our service. Many experienced quite the opposite. I for one just never told anyone what I had done or even that I had been in the military.

Today many people try to thank me, I don't like it and because of 40+ years the other way I don't need it. I try to accept it because my guess is it makes them feel better about themselves.

No one knows I've been in the military unless it's from my wife, someone else or the subject comes up and my opinion might straighten out some ones' dumb ass comments.
When some one does find out I was a Marine the demeanor and BS factor changes.

I expect nothing from the outside world for my service to my country and the sacrifices that were necessary.
If some one want to say thanks in their own way, regardless of how trite it may sound I would still acknowledge it as a measure of recognized respect.

I will say this...when I see now that our servicemen are getting the 'welcome home' accolades they so deserve it does take me back to our time and I do get pensive about it all and how we were treated.

Well...fvck it.....life goes on and I'm able to be here without getting banned yet and yak about all this sh!t with other Brothers.
That' The Brotherhood.

That's my take on it.....back to topic.

Zulu 36
07-17-11, 06:04 PM
Dealing with this topic is like dealing with the kids in the wading pool about combat and glory. Except, now the OP is someone who should know better.

03Foxtrot
07-17-11, 06:34 PM
I agree Dave. All of us have personal disappointments, some of our own design and some not, either way, the Corps is what you make of it or will make you into what it needs. Make the cut and move on and up or don't and leave, either way, to blame the entire organization for ones own shortcomings is, to me, a continuation of why you have failed. I am by no means immune to having my own resentment and anger towards the Corps, of the late 60's, when people like me were quickly shoved out the door and forgotten by everyone because the war of attrition was winding down and those of us that a year earlier were critical to winning the war in I Corps suddenly found ourselves very expendable. Despite these and other reasons that I have for my own opinions being less then agreeable about the conduct and final outcome of the war and the cost in human lives and suffering by many survivors of combat there, I still have nothing but respect and honor and love for the United States Marine Corps and all it stands for, past, present and future.
Semper Fi, Scott

Sgt Leprechaun
07-18-11, 11:20 PM
Actually, this is not a 'bad' discussion. And, while ham handed about it, the kid brings up some interesting points.

Not everyone gets what they want out of the Corps. If they did, hevll, we'd ALL be lifers, wouldn't we? Some jobs are crap, no doubt about it. Others are more 'high speed' and what the 'public' thinks of when they think of Marines. But those older and wiser than I have already nailed it.....it might just be time for you to EAS. Seriously. Once you get 'outside', you'll see just how jacked up the REST of the civilian world really is.

As far as having contractors doing the 'pogue' jobs, not a good idea. Several reasons for that, largest among them would be those would be 'GS' level jobs, where competence, skill, and supporting the guy in the weeds would almost NEVER play a factor in getting the job done. Furthermore, those contractors couldn't (and many wouldn't) foward deploy when needed. Trust me, civilianizing is already made too many inroads into the military as it is, you don't want, or need, any more of it. Gunfighter contractors are a separate issue, basically they can go and do where 'we' cannot for a bunch of different reasons. Turning us all into Janissaries isn't a good idea either.

Again, believe it or not, I've actually read articles in the Marine Corps Gazette every so often exploring (with much more finesse to be sure) this topic. I'll allow it to continue.

tripledog
07-18-11, 11:55 PM
I just dont know about this:

"So it's a matter of when you lived, and that differs tremendously. This is why a 23 year old and a 64 year old cannot possibly fully understand where each of them is coming from-----------they live/lived in two different worlds, literally."

It is my opinion that the Corps stayed basically the same from 1776 to when at least when I got out. What changed it and why?

Do you really think that the Corps of today is better than the Corps of the older generation? I think they may be better tech wise, but physically wise and gut wise, I really have my doubts. Personally I think the new corps uses excuses to make up for the "guts and glory" of the old Corps.

However if I were a youngun, I would probally want to cover it up too.

advanced
07-19-11, 08:13 AM
For a Marine to be seen as an "Animal" today appears to me to be a bad thing. We were proud to be called animals. We were savage alpha males, we didn't even know what pc was, and our favorite joke was "**** you!" if you don't like it.

In my Marine Corps if you were having difficulty in adjusting you were not coddled, or worked with. You were considered a non-hacker. We used to eat our own.

All my life when others would tell me that I was "Too Strong" in the way I would come on I would just say that they ought to see a half dozen of my good friends (my squad). I was the easy going one.

I for one, refuse to be castrated by today's society. I will go to my grave with my "Tools Intact."

Mongoose
07-19-11, 08:54 AM
Being a grunt in Nam, was not for the weak and timid. No one wasted time on an azzhole that might get you killed. You developed a mind set, that this day may be my last day. If you couldn't take a round or scrapnel to the arms or legs and still keep laying down fire, or put your finger in the bullet hole in your brothers chest to stop the bleeding and fire with one arm, you didn't have any business being a grunt. Grunts kill people and get killed. And brother Russ is right on. You turn into an animal to survive. Looking back, I wouldn't trade that experience for anything in the world.

advanced
07-19-11, 08:57 AM
Being a grunt in Nam, was not for the weak and timid. No one wasted time on an azzhole that might get you killed. You developed a mind set, that this day may be my last day. If you couldn't take a round or scrapnel to the arms or legs and still keep laying down fire, or put your finger in the bullet hole in your brothers chest to stop the bleeding and fire with one arm, you didn't have any business being a grunt. Grunts kill people and get killed. And brother Russ is right on. You turn into an animal to survive. Looking back, I wouldn't trade that experience for anything in the world.

Grrrrrrrrrr

awbrown1462
07-19-11, 08:59 AM
I do not know how it is now but I was a 3041/43 when I got in after school I went to Fox 2/12 if they would have gone to war I would have gone with them we had o1XXs in our admin office who would have gone too also we have an Ammo tech and many of times when we went to the field after my supply work was done I was on the permeter with other office Marines while the Gun Bunnies where at their Guns so I never felt bad about what I did