View Full Version : Marine shot at 70+ times while in his own home at Arizona and killed... by the police
Ignition
05-27-11, 07:56 PM
http://www.cnn.com/2011/CRIME/05/27/arizona.marine.death/index.html?hpt=T1 <br />
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:devious::thumbdown <br />
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Report: Marine never fired on SWAT officers who fatally shot him <br />
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By Chuck Conder, CNN <br />
May...
Ignition
05-27-11, 08:01 PM
sorry if this had already been posted before
Old Marine
05-27-11, 08:29 PM
This was posted a couple of weeks ago.
Ignition
05-27-11, 09:06 PM
ah figured someone would of beat me to it
michagnu
05-27-11, 09:17 PM
His weapon safety on, or weapon unloaded, or a toy weapon, makes no difference.
Did he point it in the direction of the officers, after they knocked, broke down the door and entered? If he did, or reached for it, case closed, safety on the weapon has nothing to do with it, no ammo, nothing to do with it.
Officer safety is paramount. They cannot stand there and be shot, waiting to see if the guy's weapon is on "safe". They have no time to ask him if that gun is loaded. They have no time to ask if the gun is a toy or real.
If they could take a time out, sit down with the gentleman and discuss these things, that would be fine.
But a SWAT team generally is not afforded that opportunity by the person they are seeking to arrest.
Alternative? Stand there and be shot.
Agreed. Whether they had good reason to suspect him of anything might be questioned but there is no question they had good reason to open fire.
Interesting side note for those of you who are surprised a the volume of fire: They probably don't designate a guy to shoot him if the ____ hits the fan. I would like to be in on the meeting if they did though.
TheReservist
05-27-11, 10:24 PM
Sad that it had to happen, either way
YLDNDN6
05-28-11, 12:56 AM
Knock, knock, knock...this is the police, open the door, search warrant.....none of this sounds like "go for your gun" or "arm yourself" unless you are up to no good. If you are on the level, you don't even think of grabbing a weapon. Sad it had to happen, but what the heck was he thinking?
Sgt Leprechaun
05-28-11, 02:24 AM
Jacked up....but several questions remain....
Was this a 'no knock' warrant? (Probably so based on what they are saying).
If it was, they had the right to bust down the door at zero dark thirty. Like it or not. BUT, this is why judges don't like to issue these, for this EXACT reason.
Subject in fact (?) had a weapon and was responding to what he BELIEVED at the time was a home invasion (and it's not uncommon these days for the bad guys to yell 'Police' etc...and to even be wearing cop stuff).
Nonetheless, if you, as a member of the SWAT team, go into this, and see a threat with a rifle, you have no way of knowing the weapon is on 'safe' or not. You shoot to eliminate the threat. And, if armed with an automatic or semi auto weapon, firing 70 rounds.....is not unreasonable. It may sound so to the untrained person but it's not, based on various factors.
Yes, the whole thing sucks all the 'way round.
advanced
05-28-11, 06:07 AM
It sounds as if the SWAT officers went strictly by the book on this one, however, I'll suggest the training manuals are missing a few pages. The officers had all rights for taking the suspect out, they had lawful entry on their side (warrant) and they had the right to shoot (armed suspect).
What must be understood though is how was the warrant produced. In many of these drug cases the information for the warrant comes from a druggie who was turned into a snitch on a plea deal. Much of the info from such people can lead to bogus entries, they're trying to save their own hides. So some of the missing pages have to deal with was the info valid or bogus, are they making a justified entry or are they invading the home of a law abiding citizen? I know, the officers are not supposed to deal with these issues under the letter of the law. There is also the "color" of the law.
When I was SWAT we took everyone alive. We didn't take chances, quite the contrair. It is simply those split second choices that a seasoned highly experienced officer is able to make. In my day we were all combat vets who on the whole only took lives if we had to. How do you train for that? It is much easier to train by the book, even if it does have pages missing. Just because a suspect has a weapon (Like Lep said he could have thought there was a home invasion going on) does not mean that he should be killed.
If the choice is made to kill the suspect, yes fire everything at him till he drops, take no chances. During training we used to have to fire so much you actually get tired of it. You learn to fire and reload so fast you'd think our weapons never emptied. I was on the entry team, typically up close and personal. We were all expert shots and quite deadly, when we had to be.
FistFu68
05-28-11, 08:49 AM
:evilgrin: There is alot of Crazy Chit going on down here in Az.The Fuzz is loaded for Bear can't really Blame them.As far as this Former Marine getting wasted well I'll leave that up too the Experts.F**k Stephan Segall bought Maricopa County a M-48 Tank and rammed it thru a Chicken Farmers house 'cause some snitch said there were Cock Fight's going on there,That's BullChit 'cause I was at Church then :D :iwo:
advanced
05-28-11, 09:48 AM
Hey Fist - I've been to Tombstone, loved the area. Also loved Flag.
SgtThrasher
05-28-11, 10:02 AM
Fist, bro when did you leave Wisconsin ? How do you like Arizona ?
Sgt Leprechaun
05-28-11, 05:34 PM
Advanced, I"ve BTDT too. Concur.
hbharrison
05-28-11, 06:23 PM
The only thing I see that is someone had some real bad INTEL on this one as they found nothing ilegal in the house.
Vandrel
06-01-11, 09:33 PM
Just read up on this from another site, just....wow. wtf
Initial report, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fFhZ-G1Pb1Q&feature=player_embedded
911 call, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9LsxnRUNKuE&NR=1
Lawyer, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tBxVJIJavJY&feature=related
Vandrel
06-01-11, 09:38 PM
Sounds to me like the department recieved bum scoop that wasn't cross checked, executed a warrant that should never have been issued for the residence and went in guns blazing not expecting what they encountered. From what I gather, they entered the home, the family thought it was a home invasion and they fired on him. After he was down, judging by the 911 call, it seems like the team pulled back to collaborate when they realized they may have just ****ed up.
I mean come on, the best they could do was say that the Marine said "I've got something for ya"? While his wife sits on the phone with 911 for 10 minutes trying to figure out what just happened. What wife would call 911 after a shooting in her own home when SWAT claims they identified themselfs and cleared the residence? Clearly someone's story isn't adding up.
Personally, I hope someone gets castrated, going off of what I've just read and heard. Hate to say it but sounds like the department is trying to cover their asses and justify their actions. Luckily for the wife she called 911 and has the recording to beef up her defense.
hbharrison
06-02-11, 06:14 AM
This whole thing stinks of bull cr*p, after looking at the evidence so far the SW was based on cr*p. Now they say they have evidence of some kind, WHOW!! Someone got the ol t*t in the ringer and now they running to cover up the mess they made.
advanced
06-02-11, 07:06 AM
When SWAT is used to enforce a drug warrant it is not up to them to announce that they have a warrant, it is up to the "Narc's" or whoever actually got the warrant. SWAT is there to enforce the warrant. When entry is made SWAT kicks in the door and makes entry and secures the premises with whatever means is necessary.
It's not like on TV where someone knocks on the door announcing "Open up, we have a warrant." Many times the announcement is made as the door is kicked in. Many time the occupants are in a state of alarm as their door is crashed and armed strangers forceably make entry and over power them.
It would be very natural for an occupant, such as this Marine, to grab a weapon if available. Once again, this split second training as whether to shoot or not to shoot is very hard to train for. SWAT is highly trained for these instances, but are taught to shoot if someone has a weapon. This is where a higher degree of training is often not available.
SWAT would not ID themselves to the wife, they would be silent and generally masked. They would leave all communication after they have secured the premises up to the officers who secured the warrant.
Vandrel
06-02-11, 08:32 AM
I would expect, depending on if the entry was dynamic or stealth, them to at the least identify themselfs to a target before shots are fired.
IE:
Entry is made via dynamic means
A suspect is encountered, there's your positive ID
*At this point I would traditionally expect "Police" to be shouted to clearly identify themselfs to whoever they have just encountered
A weapon is visible, not entirely "hostile intent" unless raised and/or pointed in the general direction...so situation dictates on that one
*At this point I would expect "Drop your weapon" which to my understanding is a standard SOP for law enforcement.
If threat does not comply or displays intent or motions to "act" I'd imagine the green light to fire is justified.
A lot of this is speculation, I'm not SWAT or law enforcement expert but I think that rules of engagement for LAW ENFORCEMENT are somewhat common sense in these cases. These guys are not military personnel forward deployed in a combat zone, they are enforceing law and preserving peace within the country. I've always understood that common SOP is to attempt to disarm before engaging in deadly force.
Just me thinking out loud and over analyzing the situation.
Another interesting note was that I recall in one of the news tabs that it was mentioned that police claimed to have surrounded the residence and utilized a bullhorn to call out to the occupants of the residence.
iamspartacus
06-02-11, 01:48 PM
Interesting side note for those of you who are surprised a the volume of fire: They probably don't designate a guy to shoot him if the ____ hits the fan. I would like to be in on the meeting if they did though.
Good point. Being shot 20 times may sound excessive, but I would imagine almost all of those shots happened in about 2 seconds. Think about how we as Marines are trained. When we clear a house and come across a hostile we take them out with two to the chest and one to the head. Sounded like there were at least 5 guys involved with this shooting, probably more. If you have 7 guys all instantly reacting as they were trained, there's where all your rounds come from.
I think we all agree, given the intel the officers had, their actions were perfectly justified. So it doesn't seem like there should be any discussion if they should have punitive action taken against them. Question is, do the guys who gathered the intel have this guys blood on their hands for giving bum scoop?
Cpl Heglar
06-02-11, 02:08 PM
If they ever bum rush my house at 0 dark 30 and I get shot 20 times for no good reason other than protecting my family, You guys give em hell cause I'll be dead. The only way this would happen to me is if the mistakenly hit the wrong house or fakce cops come rushing in either way it aint going to be perty.
Zulu 36
06-02-11, 02:24 PM
When SWAT is used to enforce a drug warrant it is not up to them to announce that they have a warrant, it is up to the "Narc's" or whoever actually got the warrant. SWAT is there to enforce the warrant. When entry is made SWAT kicks in the door and makes entry and secures the premises with whatever means is necessary.
It's not like on TV where someone knocks on the door announcing "Open up, we have a warrant." Many times the announcement is made as the door is kicked in. Many time the occupants are in a state of alarm as their door is crashed and armed strangers forceably make entry and over power them.
It would be very natural for an occupant, such as this Marine, to grab a weapon if available. Once again, this split second training as whether to shoot or not to shoot is very hard to train for. SWAT is highly trained for these instances, but are taught to shoot if someone has a weapon. This is where a higher degree of training is often not available.
SWAT would not ID themselves to the wife, they would be silent and generally masked. They would leave all communication after they have secured the premises up to the officers who secured the warrant.
Maybe it's OK in Arizona for SWAT to not announce a warrant. I can't count how many doors I've busted open on drug raids and we ALWAYS announced we had a search warrant or an arrest warrant. That was our authority for doing what we were doing. The narcs came in after the place was secure and showed the warrant to the occupants.
When I was on the job in Michigan, state "no-knock" warrants were not legal. We had to knock and announce our authority and give the occupants a "reasonable" opportunity to open the door peacefully. However, we could stop waiting the moment we heard yelling and running around, except toward the door. That happened a lot.
I've been on a couple of federal "no-knock" warrants (which has to be specifically authorized by the judge signing the warrant). But as soon as the door crashed in we were announcing who we were and what authority we had. Not only was that to prevent most shootings, but to prevent bogus self-defense claims.
In crashing a door for someone else who got the warrant, the SWAT team is completely dependent on the information given them. If the narcs got bad intel, it's on the narcs. Yes, SWAT may do a drive-by recon, but that is more to confirm which house it is and look for obstacles, fences, dogs, etc.
In this case, nothing illegal was found, but the narc information was correct that there would be weapons in the house and the SWAT guys entered knowing that.
Here is my theory: The SWAT people did knock and announce themselves, although I didn't hear anything about a warrant. They waited and after a reasonable time (in my opinion), the boss of the stick gave the OK to ram, which was done. They start to enter and the lead man with a ballistics shield apparently slips and falls (Murphy's Law). The homeowner, having rushed out of his bedroom with an AR-15, probably because he was still processing the mess, likely recognized the people trying to come in his door were cops, so he does not shoot (he's a trained Marine, ID target first, cops = no-shoot target). The cops, not knowing he won't shoot, see the AR-15 pointed in their direction, the lead man down, unfortunately put two-and-two together and get five.
Sad, but legal.
advanced
06-02-11, 02:29 PM
Maybe it's OK in Arizona for SWAT to not announce a warrant. I can't count how many doors I've busted open on drug raids and we ALWAYS announced we had a search warrant or an arrest warrant. That was our authority for doing what we were doing. The narcs came in after the place was secure and showed the warrant to the occupants.
When I was on the job in Michigan, state "no-knock" warrants were not legal. We had to knock and announce our authority and give the occupants a "reasonable" opportunity to open the door peacefully. However, we could stop waiting the moment we heard yelling and running around, except toward the door. That happened a lot.
I've been on a couple of federal "no-knock" warrants (which has to be specifically authorized by the judge signing the warrant). But as soon as the door crashed in we were announcing who we were and what authority we had. Not only was that to prevent most shootings, but to prevent bogus self-defense claims.
In crashing a door for someone else who got the warrant, the SWAT team is completely dependent on the information given them. If the narcs got bad intel, it's on the narcs. Yes, SWAT may do a drive-by recon, but that is more to confirm which house it is and look for obstacles, fences, dogs, etc.
In this case, nothing illegal was found, but the narc information was correct that there would be weapons in the house and the SWAT guys entered knowing that.
Here is my theory: The SWAT people did knock and announce themselves, although I didn't hear anything about a warrant. They waited and after a reasonable time (in my opinion), the boss of the stick gave the OK to ram, which was done. They start to enter and the lead man with a ballistics shield apparently slips and falls (Murphy's Law). The homeowner, having rushed out of his bedroom with an AR-15, probably because he was still processing the mess, likely recognized the people trying to come in his door were cops, so he does not shoot (he's a trained Marine, ID target first, cops = no-shoot target). The cops, not knowing he won't shoot, see the AR-15 pointed in their direction, the lead man down, unfortunately put two-and-two together and get five.
Sad, but legal.
I totally agree, except for the other possibilities stated.
Hey guys i have been out of the loop for awhile.and i have been following this story. pretty sad stuff.AR-15 loaded and on safe. He did not get off one round, and probably never intended to. what Marine does not have body armor or some different cap's laying around. heck i still have a n.v.a. pith and a south Viet flag. and a few other choice item's..so i gues they would say crazed vet. and look at the stash.. i hope it all comes out in the wash, and will probably find out the guy was just a working Former Marine. and was not involved in any wrongdoing.. the Law is not always correct.and they do make mistakes big time.
and a Big thanks to the guys from platoon 3352 way back in the day. Glad to know some survived.Ron 68
I would expect this to start happening more often. Our own government has labeled all prior military personnel as probable domestic terrorists. On top of that, when you consider the training that infantry and combat support personnel have, cops are going to go with no knock's for the benefit of surprise and justification in any shoot cases.
Looks like I'll be putting claymores in my walls and armored hard points to fight from. Gone are the days a shotgun and slippers were all you needed to grab for a bump in the dark. I'll load for bear clad in armor.
Sorry that this happened. As I've read the stories, it sounded like he answered the door with his rifle in his hand. Bad move. RIP brother, and glad that his family and the SWAT guys are safe too.
SgtSostand
12-16-11, 04:41 AM
This is sad News
irpat54
12-16-11, 08:51 AM
if they announced police,, how long did they wait before entering or braking down the door,, what is the normal procedure for that,, in that area, it can be very confusing as to who to trust and not to trust,, because like was said sometimes the bad guys IE the druggies or the human sex slave traffickers will say the same thing,, i know one thing we need a very close look at this down here and the drug trade coming across the border needs to be severely damaged,,
It is sad news. When this first happened the reports said the warrant was issued for drugs and weapons. The report supposedly confirmed from an "un-official" source in the department that was "supposedly" there that they did not knock or identify who they were.
It looks like the law enforcement community has forgotten how the judge ruled in the Ruby Ridge case. IF this Marine had got a shot off and got one of the cops he would be justified from what we know in this case.
Zulu 36
12-16-11, 09:34 AM
This subject has been gone over several times. If you watch the video, the SWAT team does knock and announce, plus a police car siren is running for a short time. In my opinion, they waited a reasonable period of time.
How long one waits to crash the door depends on many factors. Generally, when a "no-knock" has not been authorized, the time factor is a "reasonable" period of time.
What is a "reasonable period of time?" One might wait five-minutes, or one might wait five-seconds. A big determiner is what can been heard or even seen going on inside of the house. If knocking and announcing kicks over an ant-hill inside, with people running about screaming "Oh, sh*t, it's the cops", I'm not going to wait any longer to allow destruction of evidence and/or establishment of an ambush. I could easily legally justify that short time period just based on what I heard.
When intel points to weapons in a house, the raid team will tend to reduce the amount of time between knocking and busting.
As far as the danger to executing a search or arrest warrant involving a dynamic entry, yes, it can be very dangerous. Especially in high-crime areas where even the criminals fear other criminals. I crashed a lot of doors in the worst precinct in Detroit. It was an adventure every time. Why we never ended up in a shooting is beyond me. God loves fools, cops, and Marines I guess.
Hostile Intent- check
Capability- Check
I would have done the same thing, why was he around the enviroment for a drug raid anyway.
Marine - Awaken from sleep to check on issue.
Safety off
Seems to me the Marine was not fully aware of the threat.
Only people who know what happened is the Marine and the officers at the door sending rounds down range.
The wife and child are lucky to be in the closet.
S/F,
CEYA!