expert witness needed - OC instructor

[fivefoottwo]

I was a base Marine and worked in supply at LeJeune, an honor grad out of boot and school, but my life was never threatened to uphold the Constitution. My high-school sweetheart's on the other hand,...

[Mistybluelady]

well not being a Marine.... the only advice I can offer is fill out your profile and good luck

[Old Marine]

Fill out you profile or forget it.

[USNAviator]

Your attorney should be handling this for you. There are plenty of Expert Witness sites on Google. I found at least a dozen pepper spray experts. I have my doubts you'll find any on LN

And yes please fill in your profile, there are rules here as well

Good luck to you

[fivefoottwo]

ok, will try and figure that out

thanks

[Zulu 36]

I used to be a certified use-of-force expert, but not since I retired from police work (1998).

It seems to be a bit late to try and bring an OC expert on board. The judge may not allow it. If he does, expect the other side to bring one on board too. Also, expect delays in trial/mediation as a result.

Your expert needs to not only be able to discuss the chemical composition of OC, but be able to compare it to other chemical sprays and other force methods. He/she needs to be able to describe appropriate use of OC on the force continuum, appropriate application (where to spray, etc), and the usual expected effects of OC. Also, possible bad effects of OC.

The expert must be able to testify to what may not happen when OC is used (i.e., it doesn't work as effectively on everyone for different reasons). Also, what an officer should do after using OC (i.e., immediately restrain and handcuff the offender - which is actually doing the offender a favor as it keeps them from rubbing their eyes making things worse pain-wise).

The expert will need to know Ohio law and the department policy regarding use of OC, which means your lawyer will need to have these things for the expert to review ahead of time.

If the judge accepts your expert as a fully qualified "expert witness," he/she may be allowed to express an opinion as to the appropriate use in your circumstances. If the expert is only qualified to testify as to the chemical makeup and usual effects, no opinion testimony will likely be allowed. So this OC expert also has to be an expert on police use-of-force as well. Or, you'll need a second expert for that.

Another point: stop using the term MACE if the deputy used OC. MACE (technically called Chemical Mace) is the brand name of a different chemical spray used by police (uncommonly used now since OC and TASERs came along). But lawyers love to play with semantics and make you look stupid to the jury.

[USNAviator]

Good answer Chris. An expert witness can cost some serious bucks

[Zulu 36]

Good answer Chris. An expert witness can cost some serious bucks

Yep, but unfortunately I was always testifying for the government, so I was on the regular payroll.

[fivefoottwo]

thanks, Zulu 36, that helps

the PA even refuses to give us the MSDS on the OC used and the judge refuses to make them

they called it both Mace and OC pepper spray in their reports

I understand the brand name

[SlingerDun]

Where you going with the pepper spray? Are you attempting to prove that you could not have physically engaged the deputy or anybody after receiving a blast? or what..
I've been "accidentally" popped with UDAP bear deterrent in the face. And while it momentarily took my breath away, knocked me to my knees and burned the eyeballs something terrible; i could see directly. And once i got my wind back (a few seconds) could have waded head and fist into the sprayer with proper vigor. Had it not been myself.

[Zulu 36]

Where you going with the pepper spray? Are you attempting to prove that you could not have physically engaged the deputy or anybody after receiving a blast? or what..
I've been "accidentally" popped with UDAP bear deterrent in the face. And while it momentarily took my breath away, knocked me to my knees and burned the eyeballs something terrible; i could see directly. And once i got my wind back (a few seconds) could have waded head and fist into the sprayer with proper vigor. Had it not been myself.


Yes, people can, will, and do fight through the effects of OC spray. This is one reason officers are sprayed during their training. Every time you use it, you will be exposed to it. Learning what OC does and does not do allows the officer to finish his job of arresting the suspect without the panicky feeling most people suffer when sprayed.

Properly instructed, an officer knows that OC is not a magic wand that causes all resistance to instantly cease in all persons. After all, some people get shot multiple times and the fight is still on.

[fivefoottwo]

Where you going with the pepper spray? Are you attempting to prove that you could not have physically engaged the deputy or anybody after receiving a blast? or what..
I've been "accidentally" popped with UDAP bear deterrent in the face. And while it momentarily took my breath away, knocked me to my knees and burned the eyeballs something terrible; i could see directly. And once i got my wind back (a few seconds) could have waded head and fist into the sprayer with proper vigor. Had it not been myself.

What is a normal reaction to get sprayed directly in the eyes?

I think it would take some instruction of being sprayed for the first time ever, to not react with putting your hands to your face and going backwards. That's why I did, and as soon as I heard my husband scream, I fled.

The deputy said I immediately attacked him (I think he said shoved and kicked) when he sprayed me.

It was with a stream and I saw it coming so my eyes were open. It was in my mouth, so I'm sure that my mouth was also open at least somewhat from the complete surprise of what was happening.

So how could I immediatley attack him?

From the training videos I've watched on youtube, the person knows it's coming and they have their eyes and mouth closed and have taken a good breath to hold. They have been instructed to keep their hands away from their faces and immediately defend themselves by attacking the attacker. And most of these people have watched others go through the same thing first, so even better mentally prepared.

Still, the trainees often put their hands up and they are focused on the pain and suffering, not self-defense. Often the instructor tells them what to do and often leads them with their voice to the next station because the victim can't see.

And I nor my husband have ever had any OC training.

I had papers in my hand. What I want to establish is that any reasonable person could not believe that I could have held onto the papers after being maced. Then he says that he "wrestled" with me in the grass. Still no papers where he says any of this happened. I also had a heavy bag over my shoulder where things could fall out if I was in the grass "wrestling", which I wasn't.

It all comes down to this - the deputy not only is a liar, but he targeted us with excessive force even though we had done absolutely nothing criminal, but just because he knew we were Marine vets, as he puts it - "highly trained Marines".

If we can prove perjury, he can no longer hurt anyone else while wearing a badge. I need every possibility I can conceive to do this.

My brother is a big city police officer and he does vehicle accident investigations, so please don't think I have it in for all of them, but right now, I don't have a very high opinion of either law enforcement or the criminal justice system.

5'2"

[Zulu 36]

The "normal reaction" for "most" people is to grab their face, stagger backwards, screaming (more like, ahhh, ahhhh, ahhhh!).

Yes, I have had people who have never been sprayed before go into instant attack mode. Sometimes this is caused by drugs, alcohol, natural high pain threshold, or just a plain mean, nasty attitude (or all of the above). Plan B is required.

You can't tell how a person will react to the OC until sprayed. Usually, the reaction is good from the police perspective, but you can't assume that and have to be prepared to escalate the force.

The first time I was sprayed, the droplets coming towards me looked like ping-pong balls. I was nailed, but good, in the eyes. I wasn't very aggressive at that time. However, ever afterward, I could always go into attack mode immediately after being sprayed.

BTW, did the deputy know you guys had been in the Marines before this incident? If not, how could he use that information in his use-of-force continuum? The 20/20 hindsight rule applies both ways.

[PJones64]

r

[fivefoottwo]

The "normal reaction" for "most" people is to grab their face, stagger backwards, screaming (more like, ahhh, ahhhh, ahhhh!).

That was us and we weren't drugged up or anything of the sort.


BTW, did the deputy know you guys had been in the Marines before this incident? If not, how could he use that information in his use-of-force continuum? The 20/20 hindsight rule applies both ways.

Yes he did, but we didn't recognize him at all at the time. My husband heard one of the other deputies call his name afterwards and he realized who he was. He played high school football with our boys and went coon hunting with our older son.

[Baker1971]

probable situation report
eviction proceedings, court ordered, family refuses to leave, deputies go out with eviction notice, are met with resistance, it goes from there
Blame courts,crim justice sys, deputy, lawyer fired, but no blame on self
End of scenario

[Old Marine]

probable situation report
eviction proceedings, court ordered, family refuses to leave, deputies go out with eviction notice, are met with resistance, it goes from there
Blame courts,crim justice sys, deputy, lawyer fired, but no blame on self
End of scenario

:thumbup::thumbup:

That is probably just the way it went down.:evilgrin:

[PJones64]

Sounds about right.

[fivefoottwo]

probable situation report
eviction proceedings, court ordered, family refuses to leave, deputies go out with eviction notice, are met with resistance, it goes from there
Blame courts,crim justice sys, deputy, lawyer fired, but no blame on self
End of scenario

What are you talking about? Where does EVICTION proceedings come from?

[Sgt Leprechaun]

Hmmmmm.....

Well...believe it or not, I AM, in fact, an 'expert witness', but not for OC and not anyplace else other than Maryland.

First, I can tell you this, I'm not quite sure that an 'expert witness' is going to help you much in this particular case. What, exactly is it you are trying to do here? Get the entire case dismissed? File a Section 1983 Civil rights suit?

An expert witness for this sort of thing will cost you....plenty. I won't get into fee schedules but they are NOT cheap and there is no assurance you'll even win. Even if you don't, the EW always gets paid, up front and prior to testimony.

[fivefoottwo]

I'm trying to prove the deputy is a liar. He has made up this story, that he had to mace me because I kicked him. That never happened. I never touched him, I never committed any crime. I was...

[Marine1011]

Of course nothing happened. Here's a common scenario, deputies or cops patroling, they see two people minding their own business, they mace em or shoot em, or baton em, we all know you did nothing wrong. noone ever does anything wrong , you dont have to explain a thing. lotsa folks do nothig wrong and get in big tourlobe hell its normal

[fivefoottwo]

Oh, and after the PA told AEP (the electric company) this, the township trustees and county engineer went to her and told her that was not how it was and that she needed to stop them. I knew about the meeting, (the day before we were brutally assaulted by the deputy) I was outside in the hallway listening through the old glass doors. There was yelling. The engineer walked in with at least a 12" stack of permit applications to prove to her that's the way it's done. The assistant PA came out and told me that he was told to review it all. Nothing was ever done. The next day, the AEP-hired deputy brutally assaulted me and my husband for freedom of speech as we were driving home from work.

[fivefoottwo]

Of course nothing happened. Here's a common scenario, deputies or cops patroling, they see two people minding their own business, they mace em or shoot em, or baton em, we all know you did nothing wrong. noone ever does anything wrong , you dont have to explain a thing. lotsa folks do nothig wrong and get in big tourlobe hell its normal

I hope that is not meant as a sarcastic comment.

[PJones64]

Are you still looking for an expert witness or do you just want us to know how innocent you are?
Do you think many of us here are expert witnesses?
Do you just want to cry out that you're innocent.
We'll listen. Not all of us are buying it at all, but we'll listen. For awhile anyway, until it gets out of control, which it is just about to do

[fivefoottwo]

Clearly, I came to the wrong place looking for a lead that someone here, just might know someone who has such training and also still believes in the Constitution. I didn't come here to be harassed....

[fivefoottwo]

The lying deputy who brutally attacked us on 9/9/09 killed a man and was charged with both vehicular manslaughter and vehicular homicide of a pedestrian in 2004 the next county over. The innocent...

[Sgt Leprechaun]

I see.

Your long reply notwithstanding, it didn't answer one of my basic questions...which is, EW's cost money...and do you have it?

From what I've read here, I don't think an EW is what you are looking for. Not, anyway, for OC/CS use. You might think you do, but any expert in the use of force as far as this particular arrest goes isn't going to be able to give you what you want. While it may be 'instinctive' for people to grab their face when sprayed...it is only a very, very tiny part of this particular case. I assume you are going for excessive force and unlawful arrest, among other things.

Obviously, someone thinks you have a case, otherwise, it wouldn't have gone to mediation.

And I'm only hearing one side of this to be sure. However, I will tell you that all the anger and indignation you have isn't going to play well in court. Like that or not, you need to tone DOWN the emotions (and by the way...by posting here, it's 'findable' in a search) and go with the FACTS. I've told this to people plenty of times and I usually get something nasty in reply....but considering I've been in the courtroom far more than you likely have, you might want to take that for what it's worth. I DO understand your frustration and likely rage at this particular incident...but remember to stick to what you and your counsel can PROVE (51 percent is all you need in a civil case...preponderance of the evidence not 'beyond a reasonable doubt'). Ranting here, no matter how well intentioned it might be, doesn't help the case you are trying to put together. Seriously. If I were opposing council I'd be on this like butter on bread for any number of different things. Just to make you look bad.

Bottom line up front...what is it, EXACTLY, you hope to get out of this?

[fivefoottwo]

I see.

Your long reply notwithstanding, it didn't answer one of my basic questions...which is, EW's cost money...and do you have it?

From what I've read here, I don't think an EW is what you are looking for. Not, anyway, for OC/CS use. You might think you do, but any expert in the use of force as far as this particular arrest goes isn't going to be able to give you what you want. While it may be 'instinctive' for people to grab their face when sprayed...it is only a very, very tiny part of this particular case. I assume you are going for excessive force and unlawful arrest, among other things.

Obviously, someone thinks you have a case, otherwise, it wouldn't have gone to mediation.

And I'm only hearing one side of this to be sure. However, I will tell you that all the anger and indignation you have isn't going to play well in court. Like that or not, you need to tone DOWN the emotions (and by the way...by posting here, it's 'findable' in a search) and go with the FACTS. I've told this to people plenty of times and I usually get something nasty in reply....but considering I've been in the courtroom far more than you likely have, you might want to take that for what it's worth. I DO understand your frustration and likely rage at this particular incident...but remember to stick to what you and your counsel can PROVE (51 percent is all you need in a civil case...preponderance of the evidence not 'beyond a reasonable doubt'). Ranting here, no matter how well intentioned it might be, doesn't help the case you are trying to put together. Seriously. If I were opposing council I'd be on this like butter on bread for any number of different things. Just to make you look bad.

Bottom line up front...what is it, EXACTLY, you hope to get out of this?

Sgt. L,

I appreciate your response, although I don't consider my posts ranting. I consider them educational. Of course I am angry, who wouldn't be? A death threat came to me by U.S. Mail, we could lose everything we ever worked for in our entire lives, just because of a jerk deputy and PA that I can't even adequately described. I am also very well aware that anything I post anywhere about this incident is searchable, but I only ever relay the truth, which are the facts. I cannot be intimidated by persecution, that's just me.

Money...well, now that we have spent our entire life savings against AEP and the State of Ohio defending our land and our innocence and we have an outstanding bill of over $180k with the attorney firm we fired (we have an agreement), and all other attorney fees are taken care of, there is not a whole lot left, but yes, we do know the expense of an expert.

We had an expert testify in an acquittal hearing regarding the consititutionality of the deputy's actionsafter the first trial and the judge ultimately ignored everything he had to say and even said he didn't care what federal courts have ruled on such matters. We filed a disqualification after the hearing where he displayed the most rude behavior against my expert witness and the judge recused himself.

This is the same judge who ruled against me sanctioning me $14k for frivolous filing regarding my citizen road work permit case against AEP a few months before, even though their attorney straight out lied to him that they had complied with the permitting process. (not the eminent domain judge) Then, I found out that the judge's brother signed and filed the certificate of judgment for AEP against me.

Did I mention the judge officiated at the assistant PA's wedding the weekend after the first trial? Yes, the same one representing the state against me just days before. He's also the same judge that on the morning of the trial, he told my attorney that if I didn't take an Alford plea he would have to sentence me to prison for a year if I was found guilty. As we later discovered, such a sentencing is contrary to the ORC. Not only am I not guilty of any crime that I am being tried for, I have never committed any other crimes, ever!

So, this "ranting" goes to add just another layer of understanding to the corruption - the judge attempting to scare me to protect the county from a lawsuit.

As far as the opposing counsel attempting to make me look bad, they have already done a good job of that. Calling me "unkempt and unclean" in a motion to revoke bond, saying my "appearance has changed". The deputies unlawfully on our property being paid by Columbia to oppress our civil rights 24/7 X 68 days took photographs of me and my husband as we were walking through our pasture field taking photos of them. We were dressed in our farm chore clothes, complete with muck boots. At the time, I worked three days a week for an attorney firm for 10 years (not wearing my chore clothes and boots).

And there were so many more lies. The assistant PA filed an affidavit in my case after the trial that our son had been "stalking" and "menacing" and was following the deputy home who attacked us. We had to have my son gather his military orders and hotel receipts and file an affidavit to show he was more than two hundred miles away when some of the "stalking" happened and a receipt from the restaurant where he was headed when he was accused of following the deputy home. He didn't even know where the deputy lived! And, they referred to the fact that he had a "visible" (lawful) rifle on a gun rack in the window of his pickup truck parked along the street behind the courthouse. A "gun" makes you an instant suspect of something.

Apparently, there was a bomb threat called in while the jury was in deliberation and they ushered all of us out of the courtroom and back through the metal detector. Out of probably two dozen people, the ONLY person they patted down was my (Marine) husband and he did not have steel toed shoes on that day and had taken off his belt first. He did not make the metal detector go off. Remember, this is the same guy the deputy said helped handcuff his wife and put her in his cruiser after he had maced him twice that they are so scared of.

"What is it, EXACTLY, you hope to get out of this?"

I don't know what you mean by "this".

Thanks again for the discussion. If nothing else, it all may trigger something I may have missed in all the public record documents we acquired, logs, photos and other info they refused to give us through discovery. We are still waiting on my husband's PRR for the MSDS on the OC. I worked all day yesterday reviewing transcripts, my husband's oral statement he was never asked to review at the time and the written radio log and even though the sheriff's office destroyed the audio log, I came up with new ammo.

5'2"

[SgtJane08]

It sounds to me like you've been through quite a traumatic experience and I really do sympathize with you. I can see you have done nothing wrong but have been victimized by everyone around you. I truly wish you the best in this, and hope the outcome is what you desire.
It is horrible to be the victim of several entities who stop at nothing to tarnish your good reputation.

[fivefoottwo]

It sounds to me like you've been through quite a traumatic experience and I really do sympathize with you. I can see you have done nothing wrong but have been victimized by everyone around you. I truly wish you the best in this, and hope the outcome is what you desire.
It is horrible to be the victim of several entities who stop at nothing to tarnish your good reputation.

Sgt. Jane,

Those words feel so comforting to me. Thank you so much. The only female relative I have to talk to is my aunt, my deceased mom's twin, and we are really close, so I am blessed with her. I only have two close female friends (who don't even know each other) and they know about most of what has happened and we keep in touch, but I try and talk just about our kids, gardening, our current sewing projects and our horses, goats and cows, things we enjoy. Most acquaintances it seems tend to make themselves very scarce when the "law" is after you. My hubby - he's the best! When I'm down, he reminds me that I'm a Marine. One thing's for sure, all this has certainly been a lesson about humanity!

I will keep your words in my heart.

Semper Fi,

5'2"

[SgtJane08]

You're most welcome! We have to stick together, right or wrong. Maybe you were wrong in some of the things that happened during this frightful and upsetting episode, but that doesn't mean you were wrong overall.
Semper Fi back at you!

[fivefoottwo]

When you are walking to your home after having done nothing whatsoever, unlawful, and are grabbed from behind (so hard there was a handprint bruise), jerk around and maced, then flee, you have done nothing wrong. You have been brutally attacked. When you continue to be grabbed while under the influence of being maced and you think you are going to be tazed (or worse) as you can barely see he's coming after you again, not having any idea of why you were attacked in the first place and finally try to defend yourself, you have done nothing wrong. You are a victim. You are the one wronged.

[0331 2 0369]

When you are walking to your home after having done nothing whatsoever, unlawful, and are grabbed from behind (so hard there was a handprint bruise), jerk around and maced, then flee, you have done nothing wrong. You have been brutally attacked. When you continue to be grabbed while under the influence of being maced and you think you are going to be tazed (or worse) as you can barely see he's coming after you again, not having any idea of why you were attacked in the first place and finally try to defend yourself, you have done nothing wrong. You are a victim. You are the one wronged.

By your own words you new that the person was a LEO. SO why would you "flee" and "try to defend yourself"? He/she is a LEO so why didn't you just go along with what he/she told you? You could have always filed your claims later. Everyone knows not to mess with a LEO when he is carrying out his duties regardless of wether you think he/she is in the right or wrong. That just brings trouble upon yourself.

You let your feelings get in the way of your judgement and now you are paying for it. Note to self.... NEVER resist a LEO.

You keep spewing your side of the story on these pages. Why don't you get a copy of the police report and a copy of the LEO's statement (if there is one other than his/her report), scan it and post it so we can see the other side of the story.

You won't rally much support here without everyone knowing both sides of the story.

[Mistybluelady]

By your own words you new that the person was a LEO. SO why would you "flee" and "try to defend yourself"? He/she is a LEO so why didn't you just go along with what he/she told you? You could have always filed your claims later. Everyone knows not to mess with a LEO when he is carrying out his duties regardless of wether you think he/she is in the right or wrong. That just brings trouble upon yourself.

You let your feelings get in the way of your judgement and now you are paying for it. Note to self.... NEVER resist a LEO.

You keep spewing your side of the story on these pages. Why don't you get a copy of the police report and a copy of the LEO's statement (if there is one other than his/her report), scan it and post it so we can see the other side of the story.

You won't rally much support here without everyone knowing both sides of the story.


Well said!!!! Always two sides to every story....

[nasubzna]

The expert must be able to testify to what may not happen when OC is used (i.e., it doesn't work as effectively on everyone for different reasons). Also, what an officer should do after using OC (i.e., immediately restrain and handcuff the offender - which is actually doing the offender a favor as it keeps them from rubbing their eyes making things worse pain-wise).

The expert will need to know Ohio law and the department policy regarding use of OC, which means your lawyer will need to have these things for the expert to review ahead of time.
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If the judge accepts your expert as a fully qualified "expert witness," he/she may be allowed to express an opinion as to the appropriate use in your circumstances. If the expert is only qualified to testify as to the chemical makeup and usual effects, no opinion testimony will likely be allowed. So this OC expert also has to be an expert on police use-of-force as well. Or, you'll need a second expert for that.

[0331 2 0369]

Get a life and quit using others post just to pimp your sig.

[Sgt Leprechaun]

This one...has run it's course.

Truly, I wish you the best of luck.

Closed for the good of the order