MSG Leave

[BGW]

I already tried asking the few people I know who either did or are on MSG but I notice that they have not been on this site for the last couple of months. And I need to let my career planner know my decision before the end of this week.

I got accepted into MSG and was given my school house date. Now I wanted to take leave after I graduated MSG school house and then go to my first station. My career planner told me if I took leave after graduation that my chances of getting it are quite slim, and he suggested that I should take leave before going to the shool house. Because once I go and they dont allow me to take leave after graduation, i would have to wait a year on MSG until I can take any leave. He also went on further to say that I might not be able to take leave at all during those three years. But I kind of find that hard to believe, of course I do not know though. My only option is to take leave before I go to the school house? I would rather not because that leaves me with a even shorter amount of time to prepare.

For those of you that did or currently on MSG can you help and provide some information on this so I can make a decision?

[SSgtRSD]

Is there a specific reason you want to take leave after MSG school, even though you are being advised by your career planner to take leave before MSG school?

[Tennessee Top]

I did two tours of MSG duty (watchstander and Detachment Commander) and was also the MSG school Operations Chief. Things may have changed, but back then, you had to take your leave between your current duty station and the school house. The reason is, there are MSG's rotating off the program or going from their first post to the second and they need to be replaced (the battalion personnel officer plugs in replacements from the graduates to fill the vacancies and the detachment cannot wait for you to take leave before reporting).

If you need further confirmation:

1. Read the Marine Corps Order on the MSG program. It is very specific and there is also a checklist which you should've already completed with your Career Planner.

2. Call the school and ask them personally. I got calls frequently from incoming students and didn't mind at all. Better to get it right than to screw it up.

A couple notes. Every class, we had students who showed up and, sometime between leaving their last command and getting there, fell in love and decided they wanted to get married (making them ineligible). Or, they got fat and lazy and couldn't pass the initial PFT. Or, they did something stupid that would prevent them from being granted a final top secret security clearance. Obviously, this is very serious because money was spent sending them to Qauntico and now, money will be spent sending them back to where they came from...not good for a career or promotion opportunities.

As for annual leave while on the program. Of course, you'll still accrue leave as usual and, in most cases, will be able to use it. Taking leave often depends on your detachment's situation. Some detachments are understaffed for various reasons (sickness, maybe somebody got relieved from the program, etc). In this case, the MSG's still there will have to make up the extra hours on watch until replacements arrive. Leave would put an extra burden on the detachment so would not be approved (believe me, standing extra hours on post is no fun no matter where you are). Most detachments only have 6-8 watchstanders so only missing one body would have a big impact on the watch schedule. Missing two bodies pretty much means no time off when you add in your training schedule (PT, guard school, etc.).

When we did take leave, rarely did anybody fly back home. Normally, we would get a hop on a MIL group plane to a neighboring detachment and stay at the BEQ (Marine House) for free. This is a cheap way to travel and visit other countries.

The most important character trait for a MSG is integrity (doing the right thing when nobody is watching). When you're the only person in the embassy chancery on mid-watch, you have to have the integrity to stay awake, do your security checks, etc. When you're off duty at the BEQ, you have to have the integrity to not take your girlfriend into your room. When I was a Detachment Commander, I relied on my MSG's to maintain their integrity at all times on duty and off. When they didn't, I came down hard on them and sent at least a couple packing early.

Good luck at school. There is a high attrition rate because of the screening process. If you make it through, the program (like everything else in the USMC) is demanding but extremely rewarding.

[BGW]

I dont understand why people would want to take leave before going, I can relax, enjoy myself, not worry anything at all. If I took leave before hand I would have to still PT as much as I would before hand, be careful as to what I eat and how much and quite a few other things. As well have the school house loom over my head.

Thank you for this additional information MstSgt, I understand better now. Would I have to wait until I am actually in the school house to talk to some one and see if I could take leave after graudation? Because as you said, I do not plan on taking leave and flying back home once a year or anything like that. I plan on visiting different countries with my leave. But I been here on Okinawa for about a year and a half and going to MSG would be another three years. I think my family would be hurt if did not come back before I go on MSG.

But I am not going to waist the little time I have left before the school house to take leave. I only have about three months left. What? Am I out of line for doing this? I heard MSG had a high drop out rate, I would like to have the few things I can prepare for not be my concern.

[ricardk20]

I had graguated from Schools Bn and had 9 days to report to MSG School. I went home then reported to Bn. After graduating from the school my clearence had not come through yet so they gave me 20 days leave. By the time I reported back my clearence was ready then I was shipped out to my first detachment which was Saigon, RSVN. A year later I was sent to Stockholm, Sweden. There we were allowed to take leave. But like the MstSgt. said we took leave and went to other countries.
Now this was in the early 70's.
Good luck with school!!

[Tennessee Top]

ricardk20,

It's possible we were on the program (as watchstanders) around the same time. I was in Guatemala City, Guatemala from 73-74 and Managua, Nicaragua 74-75. MSG duty back then was a different world than today (pre-AIDS, pre-terrorism, etc.). Post 1 was usually in Dress Blues at the embassy reception desk in the lobby.

I was the Detachment Commander in Port au Prince, Haiti 87-88 and Sao Paulo, Brazil 88-90. Post 1 was in BDU's behind a hardened wall with blast-proof glass.

[Tennessee Top]

I dont understand why people would want to take leave before going, I can relax, enjoy myself, not worry anything at all. If I took leave before hand I would have to still PT as much as I would before hand, be careful as to what I eat and how much and quite a few other things. As well have the school house loom over my head.

Thank you for this additional information MstSgt, I understand better now. Would I have to wait until I am actually in the school house to talk to some one and see if I could take leave after graudation? Because as you said, I do not plan on taking leave and flying back home once a year or anything like that. I plan on visiting different countries with my leave. But I been here on Okinawa for about a year and a half and going to MSG would be another three years. I think my family would be hurt if did not come back before I go on MSG.

But I am not going to waist the little time I have left before the school house to take leave. I only have about three months left. What? Am I out of line for doing this? I heard MSG had a high drop out rate, I would like to have the few things I can prepare for not be my concern.

BGW,

If you took leave after MSG school, you STILL would have to PT and watch what/how much you eat, etc. Towards the end of the school (after passing the second screening board and having a passing academic average), you are fitted for your Dress Blues as well as civilian dress suits. As you know, Dress Blues are form-fitting. It would not be a good thing for the USMC to spend all that money on uniforms and civilian clothing you could no longer fit into once arriving on post after graduation leave! Don't think your Detachment Commander would be very happy with you if you could not stand watch because you could not fit in your uniform. It's my experience, when it comes graduation time, you'll be chomping at the bit to get to your post, meet your fellow MSG's, and get to work doing all the things you've been training for the last 8 weeks.

Good luck to you. Report back to us after you graduate and let us know what post you're headed to.

[Wood5831]

I took mine before school. Once you graduate, you leave right for your post unless you have DC Training. Granted things may have changed since 96.

[ricardk20]

Tennessee Top

Hey Top I was in Saigon from 9/71 to 9/72 then I was in Stockholm from 9/72 to 1/74
Yeah MSG was so different back then. In Stockholm there was only five of us. One post in the lobby. Ran it in three shifts. Now Saigon was a different story. We had 159 Marines which included a platoon of grunts. Even still we made the best of it.

[Beltayn]

PM Sent.

[Beltayn]

Figured I should prolly just post here, so that others may benefit from the question's answer.


BGW,

Glad to hear you made it and are planning on coming on the program.

Take leave before you attend the schoolhouse. Make sure you get some time seeing your family beforehand, particularly if they are from far enough away from Quantico that they won't be able to attend your Graduation.
No, you will not get to take leave after graduation. They will ship you out to your post as soon as physically possible, because once you receive your assignment there will be a det waiting for you, shorthanded, that needs you there. Unless you are some kind of med hold or (more likely) a visa hold (Cuba, for example, takes several months to issue a visa), in which case you will be temporarily attached to MCESG HQ Co. and be under their aegis until you can ship out, doing the normal bull**** pick-up trash work you'd probably expect.

Once you are out on the program, however, of course you can take leave. In fact, every command visit the officers always yell at us to take leave. The kicker is that transportation is on you. If you are posted in bum**** Zimbabwe, your ass is not going to want to spend the kind of money it would take to fly back to the states. We're talking double what I make in a month as a Cpl just for a round trip ticket.
As government employees, we are subject to the Fly America Act, which is a economic protectionist measure that forces government employees to always use an American air carrier if it is available, even if a foreign carrier is cheaper. For example, I am going on leave this August and flying to Venice to take a cruise, and am paying $1400 for a round trip air ticket from Saudi Arabia to Italy when if I flew Egypt Air I could have gotten the same ticket for $600.
Of course you can take leave though, and since flying back to the states is more trouble/money than it is worth, we use leave to go visit other countries and go on vacations. All the Marine Dets in other countries will put up traveling MSGs in their house for free, and we go visit each other all the time. There's a huge comradery in the MSG program as a whole, and you will have people in posts in every time zone on your IM communicator chat buddy list at work. Particularly once you are a second or third-poster.
You will not see your family in person for possibly a while, though, and that's something you need to reconcile yourself to if you're gonna do this program. Flying home to Alabama to **** susie girl-next-door for a 96 is something you have to sacrifice and not be a little ***** about too. Believe me, you'll get more tail than you know what to do with out on post anyway.
Most of us use Skype, and video chat with our families/girltoys back home regularly.

In between your 2nd and 3rd post you get the opportunity to take what is called COT leave (Consecutive Overseas Tour). You can take as much as you want, within reason (2 weeks or so is normal, and from experience more than 2 weeks back home is too much anyway and you will hate it).
The difference with COT leave rather than normal leave is that with COT leave the Government will pay for your transportation to your Home of Record, and then from there to your next post. Alternatively you can have them fly you to somewhere that costs as much, or less, if say you want to just take COT leave as a vacation in Europe or something. Most people go home though.

Did I answer your question?

[FistFu68]

:evilgrin: Yo T-Top did You happen 2 know My younger brother Sgt.Gary A.Gruenwald,Or Retired Sgt.Major Charlie Constance whom I went too High School with? Both of these former Men were MSG,Marines.S/F India 3 out~~~:beer: :iwo:

[Tennessee Top]

FistFu68,

Those names do not ring a bell. Do you happen to know when they were on the program and what posts they were at?

Beltayn is correct about the MSG community being a close-knit family. Nobody ever came to visit Haiti but we went across the border to stay at the Marine House in the Dominican Republic regularly (I stayed at the Detachment Commander's residence when I went). We also supported each post's Marine Corps Ball celebrations; they would send a couple watchstanders over to stand duty while we attended our ball and then we would return the favor.

I could get travel orders to send my MSG's to the US Naval Base, Roosevelt Roads, Puerto Rico on military C-130's for 72 hours. I would set up a dental appointment for them but while on the base, they could make a PX run, see a movie at the base theater, run into the barbershop, etc. They would always take a cooler with them and, on the way back to the airfield, stop by the base McDonalds and stuff it full of BigMacs, chicken nuggets, etc., and bring it back to the detachment with them. We got tremendous support from MSG Bn, Department of State, and the Navy and pretty much got everything we asked for being a harsdhip post. Basically, all I needed to do was pick up the phone. Proud to say, we were named the #1 detachment in the battalion for 1988 and our Regional Security Officer (female civilian) was named the State Department's RSO of the Year in 1988.

[BGW]

Beltayn,

I appreciate your response, it looked like you have been inactive for couple of months so I decided to ask my question here. Well looks like I am just going to have to take the bullet on this and take no leave to come back home. Oh well.

I have a follow up question for every one come to think about it.

We all have this option to put down our "preferences" and such, and being in Okinawa for about year and a half and going on the MEU two times. I have grown tired of the asian countries. Originally I was going to pick a bunch European countires and hope that to stay within europe. But I been hearing alot about hard duty stations compared to less then hard duty stations. I want to get a full well rounded experiance of MSG, the skills, knowledge and experiances that I can take with me for future endeavors.

So what does this mean? I should try putting down preferences like Afghanistan? Russia, China and any other not so friendly country with the United States? The highest potential to actually do the job your trained for? What are all of your opinions? Thanks

[Beltayn]

As a 1st Poster, you don't get to put specific posts as preferences. They simply will have you rank the 9 Regions in order of preference from 1 through 9, and answer the following questions with yes or no:
1)Have you been deployed to the Middle East?
2)Do you want to be deployed to the Middle East?

They will also tell you pretty much straight up "Don't bother putting Eastern Europe or Latin America as your number 1. They are too competitive and you will more than likely not get it over a 2nd or 3rd Poster."

As you can probably figure out, if you put the Middle East in your top 3, the odds are you are going to get it.
They ask the questions with the preference ranking because they try to make an effort to send the people that have always wanted to deploy but never were able to there, and let the guy that's sick of the Middle East after multiple pumps have a chance to see something different.

A pretty decent number of 1st Posters get Western Europe too, because the 2nd and 3rd Post MSGs know to avoid that region like the plague. Too many officers. Too high profile. Too much drama. Too many people too quick to fry you for minor things that might have been handled in-house anywhere else. Embassy community not very supportive.
That said, no MSG post is a bad post, and you will have a blast wherever you are sent, but MSGs generally don't pick Western Europe by choice.

There's really no point in speculating or worrying too much about it, because you could get literally ANYTHING, and the odds are that when you DO get an assignment, it might change completely at the last minute. You might go from thinking you're headed to Belgium, to the Bahamas, to Bahrain in a matter of a week before you fly out.

With regards to your last comment, I wont go into the details because it's sensitive information. But suffice to say that going to a post where HUMINT is a especially present threat is an assignment that is taken very seriously and is assigned very carefully.
And additionally, nowhere is "safe". Spies don't have to spy on you in their home country. Complacency kills.
You'll get plenty of briefings about the topics you're thinking about at the schoolhouse and once you arrive at post and are brought up to speed.

[Beltayn]

You'll get a chance to "do the job". Believe me. On the unclass side, I've already been the MSG on Post One during a VBIED threat on my embassy. The guys from my class who were sent to Cairo got to kick ass and take names almost as soon as they arrived at post when Egypt started imploding. Even the guys in Europe have mostly all experienced an "actual" in the past 5 months.
Not all of them are exciting. Even the exciting ones are about 45 minutes of pure terror and chaos, followed by 5 hours of mind-numbing boredom.

But you'll get to do your job. The world is a busy place. We live in interesting times.

[Tennessee Top]

Beltayn,

You are 100% right on. The bad guys pick and choose the soft targets as well as how and when they'll attack. If they execute correctly, it's when you least expect it and are the least prepared. Because of that, MSG's can never let their guard down and must always be prepared for the unexpected (that's what makes the job so tough). I always compared it to playing right field in baseball; you may not catch the ball very often during a game but, when the ball is hit your way, you must be ready to catch it.

It's like when I was talking about having the integrity to do the right thing eventhough nobody is watching. The bad guys would love to find a detachment somewhere that does not take their job seriously. This post would make an easy (soft) target.

This concept is true for counter-terrorism as well as counter-espionage. There is no rule that says a spy has to be a highly trained secret agent from an eastern block country. They could just as easily be one of the barbers at the local barbershop or the old lady you just hired as your cook and has access to your house.

[FistFu68]

:evilgrin: Yo Top my Brother was in Tunis Tunisa,around 79 Or so?.He went too MSG,when it was still at Hendreson Hall,I saw a writeup about Charlie Constance in Leatherneck something around the late 80's He was an Instructor at the School in Quantico.I'm pretty sure He was a Gunny then.He stayed in for 3O yrs. ended up being the 1st.Mar.Div's Sgt.Maj.out of Pendleton,We still keep in touch both these Marines were some Pretty good stand up Guy's...S/F and GodSpeed Top thank You for You outstanding Service too Our Country and our Beloved Marine Corps :beer: :thumbup:

[Tennessee Top]

FistFu68,

First time I went to MSG school it was still located at Henderson Hall, Arlington, VA (73). HQMC is right across the street.

When I went back to MSG school, it had been relocated to Quantico, VA (87).

Charlie Constance does not ring a bell with me. He must have left the school right before I got there. I returned to the school as the MSG School Operations Chief in 1990 (after completing my tour as MSG Detachment Commander in Port au Prince, Haiti and Sao Paulo, Brazil).