Boot Camp Then and These Days?

[joseywales]

My sons friend from high school, recently graduated from Marine boot camp. He was telling us how he had always heard older Marines talk about how hard phy. and mentally thier bootcamp was. How ever he said it must have really changed, because he said high school football practice was harder. He told my son Troy that his sister could have aced it. I dont know about today, but in my time bootcamp was a bruiser, even for the phy. fit. I cant see a woman getting through the bootcamp in my day. It must really be more like a toned down training exercise now

[the802]

Having just graduated a month ago, I can tell you that physically, it's a cake walk. They leave the physique up to the individual Marine these days...Having said that, and with Mothers of America taking away alot of what the DI's can do, they have become creative..the DI's that is. They are finding new and creative ways to mess with recruits. It's still the same training as always, just without the PT.

[Marine1011]

There are young folks nowadays who say PI and SD boot camps were easy, just like the person the original poster talked with. I don't think the Corps is the same Corps, if we're gonna go all soft on the recruits.

[civgrunt05]

I've been complaining about the quality of our boot drops for a couple years now and saying that the Corps isn't doing what it once did to indoctrinate young men.

I'm in a reserve 03 unit, and here's the synopsis of the last 5 Marines we've gotten in:

Marine 1: High quality.
Marine 2: Late his first drill, still intoxicated from night prior. Fell out of hump his second drill. Harder to get ahold of to tell him to do "between drill" taks like update some MOL BS.
Marine 3: Late his first drill.
Marine 4: Could give only 4 of his general orders his first drill, was late to formation his second drill.
Marine 5: Showed up his first drill, the "D" word came up and he was UA his second drill. Won't return ANY phone calls and removed Corps related info from his facebook page.

Even outside of that, the others that have shown up before them weren't scared of anything. When I came to my unit in 2005 my buddy and I were scared of everyone because we had been thrashed so much in bootcamp and SOI. I got NERVOUS when an NCO spoke to me because in boot and SOI they were usually yelling at us or punishing us.

I've thought about writing a few anonymous "what the .....heck?!" letters to senior Marines at the recruit depots.

I spend a lot more time then my NCOs did trying to spin up a Marine to the way he should be versus focusing on training.

[BauerBrat]

Haskins I got you by about 12 years. Boot for me was really tough. Back then them D.I's would thump you good and you had to take it or look at serious brig time. Don't rememberr much about the PT training I just remember we never got much rest

Can't say much about today's Corps except what I read on here. If the young Marine who posted said it was easy then I have to believe him

:flag:

[Baker1971]

What amazes me is that boots are not even scared during boot camp!

[Old Marine]

When I retired in 1973, I went to work on MCRD, SD as a civilian and used to see many Recruits on graduation day. The Corps was changing then and had really changed by the time I left my civilian job on the base 13 years later.

By now, I'm betting that it has really changed and not for the better. It is a shame, but it is what it is.

[Marine1011]

The direction we're headed, reckon the whole thing might all be done online someday?
I can see it now "Log In To Continue Training".

[Mongoose]

I dont have any thing I can compare my bootcamp to, since I only went through it once. I can only go by what a lot of Marines today say. Most Ive heard say its a snap. Not so in my day. Besides a lot of phy. hands on by he D.I.s it was both mentally and phy, a living nightmare.

[civgrunt05]

The direction we're headed, reckon the whole thing might all be done online someday?
I can see it now "Log In To Continue Training".

It's funny you mention that. If the other NCOs and I are talking about some particularly crappy Marine we often say something like "PFC Smucatellee better get his head out of his ass" -- "Yeah, that mofo must have gone to bootcamp online."

[PJones64]

A distinguished guy from another branch of the military just told me that it could be like the University of Phoenix, I don't know if this would work or not.
And we could privatize the boot camp system, so Boot Camp Incorporated would run it.

I can see it now, a BA in Boot Camp. All online.

And as long as boots are not afraid at all, might as well tone down the DIs to where they would be called Recruit Friends.

[civgrunt05]

I dont have any thing I can compare my bootcamp to, since I only went through it once. I can only go by what a lot of Marines today say. Most Ive heard say its a snap. Not so in my day. Besides a lot of phy. hands on by he D.I.s it was both mentally and phy, a living nightmare.

I'm sure it was pretty hellish back in the day, but I can tell you as far back as 2005 a recruit that got aggressive got a gang whooping from some DIs and sent to the hospital. We had one get his eyebrow gashed getting pushed into the hatch, faces were grabbed and moonbeams were shoved down throats when recruits didn't sound off, stuff was thrown at us, your fingers got bent up whenever they weren't curled tightly at attention, you could expect to get pushed around if you got too close to a DI, you were sometimes quarter decked and pitted until you passed out.

When I went to SOI we were hazed up pretty well too. Much of the time we were referred to as "pigs" instead of "Marines" there. We'd field day all freaking night much of the time. I remember one combat instructor pouring sugar all in a Marine's fighting hole during defense week. If we didn't do something right, we did it over, and over, and over again.

I have some buddies who weren't 03 trained because they were in before my unit changed over to infantry. They went to SOI recently and said that it was a joke. They said MCT was harder back in 04/05 with the females and that a lot of times they'd "correct" some of the boots and the combat instructors would come to them and say "Hey man, you really can't do that kind of thing here."

[joseywales]

Then why do so many of today's Marines act like they went through a real boot camp? That one is tough to figure out.

[Marine1011]

Well, I just hope no young uns come on here telling us how bad boot was, cause now we know for sure that it's now a cake walk.

[DrZ]

Please don't tell me that my Marine Corps turned into a kinder, gentler place!!!

Our DIs were tough and hard as nails....and would not pass up the chance to kick the crap out of any recruit who screwed up.

The mothers of America need to leave the Corps alone and let it revert back to what it was. The training, while tough, saves lives... and I will believe that to the day I die.

[SGT7477]

Looks like our beloved Marine Corps has gotten soft, my days in bootcamp were tough but that was 1974, Semper Fidelis.

[civgrunt05]

Then why do so many of today's Marines act like they went through a real boot camp? That one is tough to figure out.

Because some did. The pressure is coming from higher IMO. Some DI's I think still push the envelope off the cliff at the risk of their careers because they know it saves lives in the long run and preserves the tenacity of the Corps. Some do exactly as they are instructed.

Since I'm a reservist, I guess I don't appreciate the tendancy to follow the letter of the law when it comes to "being soft" because this really isn't my main career. If I get demoted for pushing the envelope or doing things "old Corps" style (not to say I'm in anyway belonging to the "old Corps") then guess what -- I still go back to my decent paying professional civilian career with the same opportunities as I had before.

I once had an officer chastise me for making some Marines dig fighting holes out in the cold after everyone was cut lose for various infractions like being late, not having a haircut, falling out of PT, etc. I had to go tell them to stop digging.

Guess what happened when Smucatelli stepped on his crank and the O wasn't around. "Wakey Wakey Sumcatelli. Grab your e-tool. We are going for a walk."

I personally think you garner as much or more respect as a Cpl. who was demoted for making a billegerent Marine take off his blouse and low crawl in a briar patch as you do as a Sgt. who wrote a negative counseling sheet on that Marine.

[Covey_Rider]

I noticed that changes while I was in. As other members have said, I was scared ****less when I got to the fleet. I kept my mouth shut and kept low. However I saw a progressive change throughout the new Marines that came in. Slowly but surely, they came to the fleet more and more cocky and thought they could do whatever the hell they wanted. We had to break the new guys down all over again and start from scratch. That ended up leading to multiple new Marines developing magical issues that would keep them from deploying. Pussies.

[Mongoose]

I noticed that changes while I was in. As other members have said, I was scared ****less when I got to the fleet. I kept my mouth shut and kept low. However I saw a progressive change throughout the new Marines that came in. Slowly but surely, they came to the fleet more and more cocky and thought they could do whatever the hell they wanted. We had to break the new guys down all over again and start from scratch. That ended up leading to multiple new Marines developing magical issues that would keep them from deploying. Pussies.
That just shows that what once was our greatest attribute, disciplin, is on its way out. Ive been looking for my platoon commander for years. I want to thank the man for being a brutal azzhole.

[Rocky C]

Please don't tell me that my Marine Corps turned into a kinder, gentler place!!!

Our DIs were tough and hard as nails....and would not pass up the chance to kick the crap out of any recruit who screwed up.

The mothers of America need to leave the Corps alone and let it revert back to what it was. The training, while tough, saves lives... and I will believe that to the day I die.


:thumbup::evilgrin::thumbup:.

Well said.

Semper Fi,
Rocky

Parris Island 1977.

[Old Marine]

Because some did. The pressure is coming from higher IMO. Some DI's I think still push the envelope off the cliff at the risk of their careers because they know it saves lives in the long run and preserves the tenacity of the Corps. Some do exactly as they are instructed.

Since I'm a reservist, I guess I don't appreciate the tendancy to follow the letter of the law when it comes to "being soft" because this really isn't my main career. If I get demoted for pushing the envelope or doing things "old Corps" style (not to say I'm in anyway belonging to the "old Corps") then guess what -- I still go back to my decent paying professional civilian career with the same opportunities as I had before.

I once had an officer chastise me for making some Marines dig fighting holes out in the cold after everyone was cut lose for various infractions like being late, not having a haircut, falling out of PT, etc. I had to go tell them to stop digging.

Guess what happened when Smucatelli stepped on his crank and the O wasn't around. "Wakey Wakey Sumcatelli. Grab your e-tool. We are going for a walk."

I personally think you garner as much or more respect as a Cpl. who was demoted for making a billegerent Marine take off his blouse and low crawl in a briar patch as you do as a Sgt. who wrote a negative counseling sheet on that Marine.

What the hell is a counseling sheet? Is it something new that goes on the bunk under the blanket or under the fart sack? These are the kind of things that some of the older guys are talking about that happens in the Corps today.

Used to be. we handled it out behind the hooch. Never needed a counseling sheet or even worried that we needed one. We had our counseling sheets at the end of our arms.:evilgrin:

[Old Marine]

On line Recruit Training. Now that's a doozy. Maybe it can be on facebook.

[USMCM38A1]

I have noticed it in the way young Marines treat old .When I got out of Boot camp and saw a Marine I did then and still do say Semper Fi I have done it to some young Marines and they look at you like your some kind of goofball.The few the proud seem to be even fewer now ,they don't seem to have the pride we had and I went through in the 80's.Political correctness and other policys like American Mothers is killing the Marines as we knew it.

[Mongoose]

I was just wondering if any of the new Marines just out of bootcamp. Has ever seen a boot talk back to a D.I.? Seems like they might get by with it now days.

[R Landry]

Oh, how I miss it!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUc62jD-G0o

[Marine84]

I cant see a woman getting through the bootcamp in my day.

Really? Yeah, I know some WW II WM's (Women Marines) too. They made it through at one point. You sound like a lot of other elder Vets that were on the Ground side and never saw women.

And even in my day it was tough, at least to me, it was.

[1stSgtMell]

Old Marine, I see you retired in '73 also and went to work at the Depot. I'll bet a dollar to a donut you know Bill Paxton, old oorah himself. I see him every year at the annual Drill Instructor Reunion. He's a piece of work,huh?

[josephd]

here is my question...

Why is it that all you old timers can question and ***** about is boot camp and how weak it and my Corps (yes I said my Corps) has become. Why don't you actually look at what we as Marines of this generation are doing in country and in combat.

I don't come on here and disrespect any of you gentleman (and ladies) by posting questions about the "old Corps", so why do you feel it is necessary to disrespect myself and probably many of the other "new" Marines by saying how soft we supposedly are?

While I will admit boot camp and OCS both are not what they used to be even 5 years ago, boot camp is still no joke. I considered myself to be in VERY good shape and still got a good ass whooping out of it. The Marine Corps today, while it may not be as "hard" as when most of you were in, is better trained and educated than ever before. We don't need all the stupid games, harsh treatment, and everything else in order to accomplish the mission.

My suggestion to everyone that questions my new generation of Marines again is to do some research on what the Marines in Afghanistan are doing and how well they do it. Maybe even take the opportunity to get in touch with a few of them and ask questions about the job they do, what is involved in it, and actually get to know them as a Marine.

[Covey_Rider]

here is my question...

Why is it that all you old timers can question and ***** about is boot camp and how weak it and my Corps (yes I said my Corps) has become. Why don't you actually look at what we as Marines of this generation are doing in country and in combat.

I don't come on here and disrespect any of you gentleman (and ladies) by posting questions about the "old Corps", so why do you feel it is necessary to disrespect myself and probably many of the other "new" Marines by saying how soft we supposedly are?

While I will admit boot camp and OCS both are not what they used to be even 5 years ago, boot camp is still no joke. I considered myself to be in VERY good shape and still got a good ass whooping out of it. The Marine Corps today, while it may not be as "hard" as when most of you were in, is better trained and educated than ever before. We don't need all the stupid games, harsh treatment, and everything else in order to accomplish the mission.

My suggestion to everyone that questions my new generation of Marines again is to do some research on what the Marines in Afghanistan are doing and how well they do it. Maybe even take the opportunity to get in touch with a few of them and ask questions about the job they do, what is involved in it, and actually get to know them as a Marine.

I understand where you are coming from, however know this...I went to Iraq and Afghanistan, and I still stand behind what I said about Marines entering the fleet all jacked up. The issue for me is not whether or not recruits still get a beating, it's the fact that the beatings instilled discipline and apparently they are not receiving discipline nowadays.

Training and education come from NCO's AFTER boot camp. Boot camp is NOT meant for training purposes. Discipline and instant obedience to orders supersede EVERYTHING else. That is what keeps you alive when you're still wet behind the ears. Not the idea that a lot of new Marines have that they already know what needs to happen.

This is not saying all new Marines were like this, however there was a trend. For the same reason you can't say that 100% of the new Marines around you are smarter and better trained. There are always exceptions.

[josephd]

I understand what the purpose of the thread is, asking what happened between the years that boot camp has changed so much. And I can appreciate a good civil discussion about it.

What I have a problem with is the few old salts that have to come in and put in their .02 about how much harder they had it.

Again I completely agree that boot camp is not what it used to be, I always heard the stories and envisioned boot camp being a nightmare. I got to the depot and it was nothing like I imagined. I kick myself to this day for not joining right out of HS in 2003 when DI's were still the rabid horrors that I had always heard and I could have gotten a true feel for becoming a Marine.

So to answer the question theme of this thread, to the best of my ability, is that boot camp does not need to be what it was back when. Recruits of the day were for the most part(no offense) were un-educated troublemaker, they joined the Corps because there was no other option for them. Recruits of today are far better educated, having to have highschool diplomas, college credits, and some like myself having complete college educations. While I'll concede the discipline instilled needs to be the same now as it was years ago, it doesn't need to be taught in the same manner.

[josephd]

I apologize for the rant style posts, I just refuse to sit back and see my Corps and my new Marines(while some are nasty and undisciplined) be talked down upon just because they didn't get their a$$es kicked in boot camp and need a little more attention once in the fleet or at their unit. I will gladly give it to them and trust me when is say it usually isn't pleasant

[Old Marine]

Old Marine, I see you retired in '73 also and went to work at the Depot. I'll bet a dollar to a donut you know Bill Paxton, old oorah himself. I see him every year at the annual Drill Instructor Reunion. He's a piece of work,huh?

1stSgt Mell: I do know Bill Paxton. I belong to the WCDIA also. I was on the field from 1966 until retirement in 1973. "E" Company and "G" Company then to 2d Bn. S-3, and then to RTR S-4 Chief. Used to stand many SNCO parades and I usually had Stanley Cheslock as CO of Troops and I would be Parade Adjutant. Got to move around quite a bit as Parade Adjutant.

Went to D.I. School with Bobby Biers when we were both Sgts. I also know SgtMaj. Lou and Ed Conradt. I was at the 2008 reunion and had a good time along with seeing some people I hadn't seen in years.

Semper Fi :evilgrin:

[Covey_Rider]

Josephd, I think another void that we're having here is that you're not Active Duty. This issue is a major issue when it comes to day to day work. You may have some brighter ones in your reserve unit.

[josephd]

But have we really come so far as a society?

hahahahaha no absolutely not.

Like I said before I think the same discipline needs to be instilled, it just needs to be taught and instilled in a different way. Different how?...I really cant answer that but I do agree it needs to be changed again now because I to have noticed new Marines checking in and are all sorts of nasty. From customs and courtesies, to physical fitness, to appearance.

The main point I wanted to make in the original post was that we don't need all the "old salts"(i say this affectionately) coming in here(when I say here I mean this whole forum, not just this thread and topic) and talking down to the "new Corps" and my generation of Marines. I see it too often when another junior Marine makes a thread asking a question about something and all the older one can say/post is something about how much easier we have it now and "we did it this way back in my day".

[josephd]

Josephd, I think another void that we're having here is that you're not Active Duty. This issue is a major issue when it comes to day to day work. You may have some brighter ones in your reserve unit.

your right Sgt. but I don't know about some of them being brighter. Yes there is the handful of us that are college educated and current college students but for the most part it is a bunch of nasties that just wanna wear the uniform, claim title, play their part once a month. But have no business being a part of the tradition that most of us hold so dear.

[josephd]

JosephD, how did they get like that, though? Boot camp failed them.
Or did it?
Or it failed to adjust their pre-Corps attitude.

While boot camp may have not done what it is supposed to I don't think we can completely blame that alone. More of it comes down to the lack of respect most kids have now growing up. I hate to preach and sound like I am so much older than most but there is a huge generation gap between those of us who are in their mid to late twenties and those others who are 18-22ish.

I think we need to look more at parents, schools, and society failing most these kids/Marines now than the DI/boot camp. These kids come to boot camp with no concept of respect or even fearing someone for that matter.

[Old Marine]

Bottom line is this: Recruit Training has changed massively since I was a Recruit in 1953 to the present Recruit Training. When I was a young Pfc. I used to hear from the old salts about how rough it was back during WW II. All Marines will tell you how tough Recruit Training was in their day. SSgt. McKeon back in his day, was the blame for Recruit Training being what it is today. Before his famous incident at Pleasure Island Recruit Training was Recruit Training. There was also no such thing as a Red Flag condition because it got a little warm. If there was we sure never knew it. I was so scared as a recruit that I really didn't wake up and realize what I was doing until I graduated. Most of the time I was just doing what I was told and going through the motions.

[Swampfox]

Is boot camp easy or hard? It's just a matter of perspective. I've long thought that boot camp has gotten a lot softer. There was a discovery channel show on that dealt with Recruit Training and I was horrified when I saw recruits crying after the crucible when the DIs were handing them their EGAs. If we would've cried like that in our platoon in boot camp...Well I don't know what would happen 'cause we were to scared to cry. That being said. Obviously what the Corps is doing to train todays Marines is working because our boys are kicking @ss and taking names in Afghanistan and Iraq.

[MarinesFTW]

I would like to put my imput in here. I believe that boot camp is defentially easier now days then in the past, I wont deney that. The problem that Ive really come to notice is the Marines who talk like it wasnt hard, or someones little sister could get through it, are normally the s**t bags. I wont lie, it was easier then I thought it was, but I can guarentee there are alot of physically fit people that could not make it through it. I would put money on that. I was one of those recruits that wasn't very well known. I never messed up, was always loud, and helped out where I could but I never wanted to take the responsibility of squad leader. Only thing I was ever known for was my knowledge, which actually pi$$ed alot of my fellow recruits off, just because they hated the fact I knew what I was talking about. I have kids from my platoon added on facebook, and when other people ask them how it was, they say it was easy as pie. They were the biggest turds in our platoon and half of them dont even know that it is spelled Marine Corps with a freaking s, they always spell Corp and when corrected they tell me Im a moron and that I need to learn how to spell. All of the good Marines that Ive had the honor of being with were those who were known because they excelled and were squad leaders or guide, or they were the ones like me, who did what they were told, to the best of there ability. Just my 2 cents...

[josephd]

I would like to put my imput in here. I believe that boot camp is defentially easier now days then in the past, I wont deney that. The problem that Ive really come to notice is the Marines who talk like it wasnt hard, or someones little sister could get through it, are normally the s**t bags. I wont lie, it was easier then I thought it was, but I can guarentee there are alot of physically fit people that could not make it through it. I would put money on that. I was one of those recruits that wasn't very well known. I never messed up, was always loud, and helped out where I could but I never wanted to take the responsibility of squad leader. Only thing I was ever known for was my knowledge, which actually pi$$ed alot of my fellow recruits off, just because they hated the fact I knew what I was talking about. I have kids from my platoon added on facebook, and when other people ask them how it was, they say it was easy as pie. They were the biggest turds in our platoon and half of them dont even know that it is spelled Marine Corps with a freaking s, they always spell Corp and when corrected they tell me Im a moron and that I need to learn how to spell. All of the good Marines that Ive had the honor of being with were those who were known because they excelled and were squad leaders or guide, or they were the ones like me, who did what they were told, to the best of there ability. Just my 2 cents...

great post...

this right here goes right into what I said before, these are the nasty Marines that were raised with no concept of respect to begin with so going to boot camp for them meant nothing. Even fear wasn't an option because they have no idea what discipline even is. Boot camp was just 13 weeks of yelling and moving fast for them, not learning the reasoning behind it. This again is why I say that I don't think we can blame the DI/boot camp but rather their parents, schools, and society for not instilling even the most basic respect for something.

[josephd]

Good posts by both of you-but, if they had the shock treatment at boot camp, they would KNOW what fear is and what discipline is. That would be an attitude-shaper, whereas the absence of it is not.
We can't blame boot camp for society's ills, but we can blame boot camp for not adjusting preexisting attitudes to what they should be, and it can be done, it used to be done.
This will be shocking to some, a kind of Nazi-like statement to many PC folks, and there are plenty of them---but I would advocate the harsh treatment we got, for these kinds of recruits we're talking about, because when they graduated they would leave the attitude behind them, chances are.
Without shock treatment and some hands-on contact, there is something missing, and we keep seeing it over and over again, and yet we just cannot bring ourselves to say, yes, in the olden days recruits learned to have good attitudes.
Like many on here, I have seen several, not most, not the majority, handled in such a way that the last thing they would do is have a bad attitude. It changed them. Out of our 81 people, 3 or 4 got their asses kicked daily, and I mean brutally, but so what? They were from inner city gangs and copped a 'tude from day one, so it was beaten out of them.
Great result.

I have to disagree here, I see these kids at the recruiters office that are shipping out and the few new Marines checking in. How are you supposed to instill discipline in someone who has no concept of it to begin with. How are you supposed to shock/scare it into them when they take what they are doing as some sort of joke, and don't understand the reasoning/traditions behind why things are done a certain way.

[Old Marine]

Recruit Training is what it is and I would say that with all the information that is out there these days, young recruits can get on the computer and learn all about reccruit training, including what the Drill Instructor can and cannot do.

Used to be we did not have this information and when you joined, you did not know what was waiting for you when you got off the bus. All you did was report on the day you were told to and the Drill Instructors took it from there. We never had any yellow foot prints and I never heard anyone ask about their hair. Fact is I never heard a recruit ask about anything. We never knew what MOS we had until grad day or when we graduated from ITR, I really do not remember when we got it. When we got our MOS's they were basic MOS's.

Not one recruit that I knew in recruit training was guaranteed an MOS. What ever you got you didn't complain and you did the job in the MOS you were given. Needs of the
Corps folks.

[Mongoose]

I have to disagree here, I see these kids at the recruiters office that are shipping out and the few new Marines checking in. How are you supposed to instill discipline in someone who has no concept of it to begin with. How are you supposed to shock/scare it into them when they take what they are doing as some sort of joke, and don't understand the reasoning/traditions behind why things are done a certain way.
In my day, I can assure you, there were all types joining the Corps, or being drafted into the Corps. No one has a concept of dicipline until its instilled in him. I know that men from my time had their azzes whooped at home and at school when they screwed up. Not so today. Parents are afraid to lay their hands on their kids. In 67-68 if a boot thought it was a joke and didnt understand reasoning. And the beatings from the D.I.s didnt help. It was made plain the whole squad would suffer with him. So we also had to dish out some form of adjustment. If all failed, he went to motivation platoon, for a while. Then he recycled to a platoon just starting. If that didnt do it. He was dropped out of the Corps.

[tracs1833]

As far as how tough or lame today's boot camp is, I don't have a clue. I have heard pros and cons but I haven't seen it myself so I'll pass on how boot 'then' and 'now' compare. I graduated Parris Island 1 Apr 1969. It was physically tough. It was mentally tougher. And yes, the Drill Instructors did freely practice 'the laying on of the hands'. I personally experienced that as a fact. I know what it was like then. I was there, I experienced it first hand. I have not been to the Island since I left it, 2 Apr 1969. So, I have not seen nor experienced what is current policy. Thus, I personally prefer not to make any judgements on matters that I consider myself not up to speed on.
I will say this, however, regarding the Marines of today. They are getting the job done. They are taking the fight to the enemy. And they are still 'kicking a** and taking names'. I am proud of each and every one of them.

[josephd]

But so many folks were just now talking about how UNsquared away a lot of the newer guys are. That's where I got my info from. Why are they not squared away coming out of boot camp? That's a question for the Corps to answer, if they have one that explains it.

When you say they are "unsquared away" what do you mean?....uniform wise?...customs & courtesies?...knowledge?...physical fitness?...

The reason I ask is that I know a lot of the things that we as Marines are known for and what quite a few of the "old corps" Marines are used to have gone by the ways side for more focus on training and preparing for combat.

Field days, barracks inspections, uniform inspections, and the like while still done and are definitely a necessity have been cut back and are less strict now. Units/commands have become more concerned with getting their Marines ready for deployment and doing their job rather than be overly concerned about whether they have an unsat wall locker or their ribbons on their chucks are spaced incorrectly.

And before anyone calls me out on this info and how I know this is going on (because I am just a nasty reservist). My best friend from college is a 1st Lt. and talk with him frequently about these kinds of things.

[Marine1011]

posts 4 and 12 for starters. Observations of some new Marines in the field.

[josephd]

I can definitely say I was changed by boot camp and by the Corps as a whole. But even when I went there were certain things that were not stressed to us as recruits as I pictured it would be coming in. But again later I learned that the SOP for boot camp has changed in that direction. Whether that is a good or bad thing is really not for me to answer. What I can say is that Marines now are better trained and educated than ever, we complete the mission at hand even with the media over our shoulders watching every move, and the politics/liberals tying our hands. If that doesn't say something I don't know what else would.

[wilsontc11]

The PT is a joke. We had a guy in our platoon fail the PFT twice, CFT once (he only passed because he had someone that weighed like 30 lbs lighter than him as his buddy) and he still graduated with us.

The most "physical" thing a DI did to be at boot camp was choke me for smiling on line once. A DI from another platoon was also notorious for hitting recruits, though i dont think he ever just straight up punched someone.

The mind games never end though. Right now id say boot camp is 95% mental, 5% physical.

[josephd]

They are trained and educated, yes, but I don't know about better than before in those two areas, and even so, more education does not necessarily equal more squared away.
What about those posts where some are seeing new Marines in the field who just don't rise to expectations?

I see those Marines also and while they are probably more frequent now than before I am sure they are still few and far between.

Here is another question to go along with this, where are the NCO's role in all of this? If these Marine are hitting the fleet/their units this way why are the NCO's not stepping in, correcting them, and nipping it in the butt before it becomes a real issue? I have no problems correcting another Marine even an NCO if necessary(tactfully of course). For those of us who are still in, instead of blaming boot camp and b*tching about these new Marines why don't we do something about it.

[Old Marine]

I can definitely say I was changed by boot camp and by the Corps as a whole. But even when I went there were certain things that were not stressed to us as recruits as I pictured it would be coming in. But again later I learned that the SOP for boot camp has changed in that direction. Whether that is a good or bad thing is really not for me to answer. What I can say is that Marines now are better trained and educated than ever, we complete the mission at hand even with the media over our shoulders watching every move, and the politics/liberals tying our hands. If that doesn't say something I don't know what else would.

By reading this, I take it that the Marines who fought in WW II, Korea, & Nam were nothing but a bunch of dumb people, who did not complete their missions. By the way, I have seen and trained college graduates who never had the common sense to pour pizz out of a boot before putting it on.:evilgrin:

[josephd]

Ah, very refreshing to see that there was some hands-on, even though forbidden.
That makes my day. LOL.

it is definitely still hands on, I got a few "thumps" through out boot camp. And believe me whatever the DI couldn't do to a particular recruit was handled by the rest of the platoon.

[josephd]

By reading this, I take it that the Marines who fought in WW II, Korea, & Nam were nothing but a bunch of dumb people, who did not complete their missions. By the way, I have seen and trained college graduates who never had the common sense to pour pizz out of a boot before putting it on.:evilgrin:

If you took all that out of my post then I don't know what else to say because that is definitely not what I meant and you are taking it way out of context

[TunTvrnWarrior]

I think one thing everyone is failing to see is what is done today to prepare the poolee to be a recruit. Back when I went in, we had poolee functions once a month. The standards for shipping to MCRD were lower. They were looking for bodies. So, I would say 30% to 40% were not up to the physical rigors of boot camp initially in that era. The Drill Instructors could choose to keep them and work with them or send them to PCP. These kids today are better prepared physically than we were.

There was also a deficit of approximatly 15 years without ITR for all Marines fresh out of boot camp. During that era, we had what was called "RFTD" during boot camp which lasted about a week and was a joke with the exception of all that humping (that was supposed to be a mini-ITR).

GEN Gray re-instituted ITR during his watch. He is an exceptional Marine. A mustang. He also challenged us mentally by instituting the "Commandant's Reading List" and introducing more academic conditioning along with returning the PRT to the fleet. GEN Krulack saw what was obviously lacking in the generation he was working with.. "character". He instituted the "Crucible". He also introduced training on "core values".

Did I get thumped in boot camp? You betcha! Three times in fact. All three were wake up calls. I believe the kids today are better trained than my era. The only draw back I see is that their parents wanted to be thier friend and not thier parent along with the marxist philosophy with today's public education system. So we have a different type of recruit to work with today. The Drill Instructors have the same mission, to unscrew 18 years of coddling and mold recruits into Marines.

Is it harder? Who knows? Is it easier? I think senior SNCO's who have been on the Drill Field and been around 20 years could better judge that. I do see active Marines from time to time. I have not found them unsat. They are still highly disciplined.

[03Foxtrot]

With the stated mission of the Marine Corps and the doctrine and the traditions and the justified reputation we have with our enemies and our allies, both who either fear us or regard us with respect, I don't see how any young man that knowingly enlists in the United States Marine Corps today can have any doubts about the veracity of the brotherhood he aspires to belong to. Rather boot camp is easier or harder then in my day is irrelevant if the objective of producing dedicated ass-kicking intelligent Marines is achieved. On a personal note, like others have mentioned on this thread, in my day, the summer of '68, personal instruction with the laying on of hands and physical conditioning and mental toughness took precedence over any politically correct or officially sanctioned means of instruction. Right or wrong, it seems to have worked for me and I was one of those who often wondered if I would make it, to myself of course, never expressed any doubts to our DI's. What with shin splints attacking me late in the game and being a man with a huge heart and desire to be a Marine, but definitely lacking any extra physical abilities to achieve this goal, I did not have an easy time. But I persevered and I graduated and became a Marine and went to Viet-Nam where I found myself among brothers, who like me, quickly learned what really mattered in this world. The reality of the war, especially a Marine grunt's life in 1968-69, and the fact that I became a good bush Marine and did rotate home, indicated that both my training and myself accomplished what I wanted the most to achieve..... to survive and not bring dishonor on myself or my country or my Corps and never to let my brothers down.
Semper Fidelis, Scott

* If I get off tangent or start to ramble, forgive me... I'm on some strong medication and I'm reading and writing on this forum as a way to distract myself from some recent issues.

[josephd]

I think one thing everyone is failing to see is what is done today to prepare the poolee to be a recruit. Back when I went in, we had poolee functions once a month. The standards for shipping to MCRD were lower. They were looking for bodies. So, I would say 30% to 40% were not up to the physical rigors of boot camp initially in that era. The Drill Instructors could choose to keep them and work with them or send them to PCP. These kids today are better prepared physically than we were.

There was also a deficit of approximatly 15 years without ITR for all Marines fresh out of boot camp. During that era, we had what was called "RFTD" during boot camp which lasted about a week and was a joke with the exception of all that humping (that was supposed to be a mini-ITR).

GEN Gray re-instituted ITR during his watch. He is an exceptional Marine. A mustang. He also challenged us mentally by instituting the "Commandant's Reading List" and introducing more academic conditioning along with returning the PRT to the fleet. GEN Krulack saw what was obviously lacking in the generation he was working with.. "character". He instituted the "Crucible". He also introduced training on "core values".

Did I get thumped in boot camp? You betcha! Three times in fact. All three were wake up calls. I believe the kids today are better trained than my era. The only draw back I see is that their parents wanted to be thier friend and not thier parent along with the marxist philosophy with today's public education system. So we have a different type of recruit to work with today. The Drill Instructors have the same mission, to unscrew 18 years of coddling and mold recruits into Marines.

Is it harder? Who knows? Is it easier? I think senior SNCO's who have been on the Drill Field and been around 20 years could better judge that. I do see active Marines from time to time. I have not found them unsat. They are still highly disciplined.

well said sir

[USNAviator]

* If I get off tangent or start to ramble, forgive me... I'm on some strong medication and I'm reading and writing on this forum as a way to distract myself from some recent issues.

Welcome back Scott, glad things went well :thumbup:

[pnwhite]

I went through bootcamp in 1961. Being fairly fit ( I went from 165# to 180# in boot camp, believe it or not!) the physical part of it didn't bother me very much. I was a little older then, than most of my platoon brothers, so I knew to keep my mouth shut and not to offer much beyond the Yes Sir!, or No Sir! I saw that the first few days in camp when another boot was asked by the D.I. if he was some college smarty dropout, and he answered "yes he was". That was all it wrote for him. He paid hell the rest of his 16 weeks in boot camp. I was in the same boat, but fortunately in college I had been in R.O.T.C. and had even been on a drill team so I knew the manual of arms and how to march, and even how to dress and shine my boots. So the mental training wasn't very hard on me either. One thing I did learn while in boot camp was that Marine Boot training is not set in stone. Marines who fought in WWII many times went through boot camp that was only 6 weeks long. Think about that. 6 weeks of training and off to the southern Pacific! I got out just before Vietnam heated up, so I don't know how long their boot camp was.
As for today's Marines - I have long noticed that they don't seem as physically fit as we were once upon a time. Not being near a military base, I don't get to see many of America's warriors, but the ones I see on TV look like they are being pretty well fed, and not too overworked. I could be wrong, but that is my impression. But have you old timers seen any policemen today. When I was just out of the Marine Corps, even then I wouldn't have tangled with an Indiana State Policeman. Today at 70 years old, I don't see many that I have much respect for as being physically fit. I might not still tangle with one because I was raised to respect law and order, but it makes my skin crawl to know that they are "protecting" us night and day. Oh well, enough said.

[leprechaun9544]

Oh, how I miss it!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUc62jD-G0o

Yep, thats just the way I recall bootcamp in 1962 !:flag:

[Quinbo]

One of the things I've noticed over the last few years. This forum represents a small piece of a large pie but still ... The number of potentials that come on here requesting information on how to lose weight. Recruits shipping one pound under max shipping weight (which is about 10 lbs over the max Marine Corps weight). There are even questions from the X-box generation about what will happen to them in PCP as though they already know they are going there. As I said the potential Marine members of this forum are just a small piece of a large pie and may not be representive of the whole.

I do find it disturbing though to see so many posts of "Hi I'm Fat and need help losing weight and also I have 3 kids" . At the recruiting level I think the requirements should be even more strigent and also I think the pressure should be taken completley off the drill instructors to graduate anybody. Hey drill instructor I see you only have the guide left and everyone else sent home with an application to McDonalds? Good job!!

[advanced]

In 1967 when I went through with the Vietnam War going on the DI's certainly didn't graduate everybody. The DI's were not interested in mass bodies but rather the focus was on proficient well trained Marines.

We started in forming with 96, during the course of training we dropped half that number, and with pick-ups we graduated about 86. We had 5 mean-assed DI's. Those dropped went to motivation platoon, and many in our platoon, 10 at a time, would be pulled out of training in the early morning and sent to one day motivation platoon. Their horror stories kept the rest of us straight.

I keep hearing on this forum that the emphasis at the MCRD is on better training with less focus on discipline and overall more irrelevant matters. I would suggest that during our time there was no better trained fighting force in the world. I would suggest that we became proficient in all MC areas including drill, Phy fitness, discipline, marksmanship, MC history, etc.

In essence, we were so well trained we could do it all. Where's the proof - look at our combat record. Not just the big battles but the endless weeks and months in the bush under totally adverse conditions losing our brothers day to day.

Were we less trained - I don't think so.

[Mongoose]

Russ, I dont consider bootcamp training for combat fighting. We were dropped right in the middle of a war, with usually 4 to 6 weeks of actual training. We got our training on the job. And we were tougher because of it. We depended on each other as much as our training. And thats why were such a close brotherhood.

[DrZ]

Really boils down to the simple fact that current Marines have better equipment and probably are considerably smarter than those of us who are referred to as 'old salts.' I don't know if a DI doing a beat down helped toughen us up or not.... or if it was simply because many got dropped into a hot LZ not long after leaving boot and the instant obedience was needed to keep people alive.

The Marines are Marines. The ones who make it through boot camp and then turn into a piece of sh!t wasted their time and didn't learn the valuable lessons that are part of boot and ITR or SOI or whatever it is called these days. These are the ones who bad mouth the Corps and everything to do with the Marines.

We have always had out 10% and there is nothing that can be done about it. If a sh!tbird keeps his/her mouth shut....learns their lessons and graduates, they have earned the title. When they get to the fleet, if they keep the crap attitude, they typically will not get promoted and their impact will be minimized. The Marines, who are true hard core Marines, will get promoted and will continue doing the job that must be done, as well as training the future generations of Marines.

Old Marine or new Marines....we are all Marines. We do what must be done and do it very well. The talk about what/who was tougher or better trained is really a moot point since the job continues to be done and the Marines stand head and shoulders above the other branches.

[advanced]

Russ, I dont consider bootcamp training for combat fighting. We were dropped right in the middle of a war, with usually 4 to 6 weeks of actual training. We got our training on the job. And we were tougher because of it. We depended on each other as much as our training. And thats why were such a close brotherhood.

I totally agree Mongoose, there was no training that anyone could devise that could have prepared any of us for where we were placed.

I guess looking back I was one of the lucky ones because I became an old salt combat vet during my first month in country. Walked out of Hue without a scratch or at least nothing that you could see.

I don't have a dog in the fight about who was better, then or now. I'm just tired of hearing how the new guys are better trained than we were. And when I picked up Cpl in the Nam I experienced real fast how much was put on us being an NCO in keeping everyone straight.

[tracs1833]

Respect! It should all be about respect. Who cares what era had the 'tougher' boot camp? All eras of the Corps have had s***birds, that is nothing new. We will deal with it now, as we did then. I hate to hear older Marines (and I am one) talk down to newer Marines. They are the future and the inheritor of our Corps. I really hate to hear newer Marines disrespect older Marines. They are the legacy and the builders of todays Corps.
Hopefully to put all of this into proper perspective, I refer to the ultimate authority on all things Marine:
"Old breed? New breed? There's not a damn bit of difference so long as it's the Marine breed." Lt Gen Lewis Burwell "Chesty" Puller, USMC

[tripledog]

I spent 3 days at mcrd diego a couple of years ago, and honestly, I do not think the Marines of today, could keep up with the old Corps boots.

However, I also do not believe that the Marines of the old Corps could keep up with the current Marines in terms of tech, schooling, and leisure time. LOL.

[pnwhite]

Tripledog - Hey! you were in MCRD alsmost the exact same time as I was. I know Texas is a big place, but my bunkmate was Ferle Thomas and he was from Texas. This kid was 6" 2 or 3" and skinny as a rail. I was 5' 6" and of medium build. So guess who got the top bunk? the guy who could just turn around and sit up there? No - I got the top bunk and he got the bottom one. We were a real team. Remember how you had to make up your bunks? He and I would make up our bunks so tight that when the D.I. tried to pull off the top blanket, they had to reach clear across the other side and pull the blanket just to get enough to grab so that they could pull it off to show us terds that we didn't know how to make our beds. Of course, he would throw a half dollar on it to see if it would bounce. It always bounced on our bunks, but that was just a challenge to him, not an indication that our bunk was "tight". On more than one occassion, I saw the D.I. react with a twinge of a smile on his face, that Ferle and I had almost defeated his attempts. I think that was another reason we got through bootcamp without much trouble.
I was in Platoon 313, just down the street from you! ! Sorry to say, I don't know where Ferle went after ITR, but I'm sure that whoeever got him was fortunate - he was a real Marine. After Radar Training at MCRD, I spent my last 22 months at Beaufort MCAS in South Carolina.

[pnwhite]

Dave2571 and others - I haven't read all the responses in this particular forum, but one thing "seems" to be apparent. Many of us old timers are complaining about how the boots are being handled...

[PFCWellsUSMC]

I just graduated MCRD San Diego boot camp and it was a joke.

[DrZ]

PFC Wells. You just joined LN and your first post is that MCRD is a joke? Fill out your profile please so all will know if you are really a Marine or a troll blowing smoke.

[SlingerDun]

It used to be double tough, but the change is not your fault. Welcome aboard Marine:flag:

[pnwhite]

Josephd and others - Bear with me, I'm just now reading through this forum. Here's where I come from. Back in the old days (and believe me - I won't say things were better - they were just different) when I came into the corps, there was still the draft. In my case, (this is just my case, but I'm sure that it applied to many others) I had gone to Purdue University for 3 semesters. To do that, I had to have a "deferment" (not many people remember what those were) Anyway, when I dropped out during semester break in December (1960) I was faced with one big ugly fact. I had just used up my deferment. That means that although you are already 1-A, your name is moved right up to the top of the list. I already had a brother who was a Captain in the Army and a Ranger to boot, and I was on the Purdue Drill Team (the best in the nation for 10 out of 11 years at that point) so what would a young fella do to top his brother who was a Ranger (This was before the Green Berets or "Recon") He becomes a United States Marine. Right? So I did. No major expectations, I just wanted to be one of the few, the proud!
Now, years after getting out of the Corps, every once in a while you would run into an "ex-Marine". It seemed like it was standard procedure to compare experiences at boot camp. (I had gotten out of the Corps just before Vietnam heated up, and although I became a war resister, it was more because of the way my fellow Marines were treated, than a belief in pacifism. So I wasn't in a position to talk about combat experiences.) Although I knew and so did the Marine (or other ex-serviceman)I was talking to that it was tough, we always stated that it was a piece of cake, we always did it with the smile on our face that indicated that you just didn't want to re-live those experiences. And,,, you didn't want to show that you were some kind of (how does Schwartzenegger say it?) girlly-guy! So you just said that it was a cake walk like you could do it all over again without breaking a sweat. That's what we brought away from our training. (The Proud!)
But what worries me is that you indicate that the Marines you talk to today might be saying that it is a piece of cake when they really mean that it is a piece of cake! There was a time when people would ask you if it was as tough in boot camp as everyone said it was. Just like the kids today, I would indicate that it was a "piece of cake" and then maybe give them a wink or a wry smile to let them know that I was one tough Marine, just for making it through boot camp. To add to that, we had older WWII soldiers that admired the Marines because thy had seen them in action in the war and the Korean War. I had an uncle who was in the U.S. Air Force (actually the Air Corps) during WWII and he fought in the south pacific. He even admired me for being an ex-Marine because he had seen the fighting in which the Marine Corps showed why we are the Marines. After Vietnam, we don't have that admiration, so it bothers me that the new Marines are claiming that it is a piece of cake and maybe even really meaning it. One of the things we have always had going for us was the eliteness of being a Marine. I hope that isn't gone.

[R Landry]

Pnwhite,

Nice post. Arnold said 'Girly Men.' lol

I miss the good old days.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4kU0XCVey_U

[KungFuAfroNinja]

I'm at PI right now. I guarantee you those recruits are just as stressed and scared of their DIs as ever. I'm not a DI but just going on the decks and seeing them nervous just to report their post to you as you walk by is enough.

There is still no wasted time. If a DI has a quiet deck, he's going to get corrected. Constantly moving recruits.

Seeing a recruit go to make a head call, then noticing there's about 10 DIs in between him and the head, then freezing in place because he's scared, then double timing away is enough. The DIs didn't even tell the kid he couldn't make a head call. He was just too scared to deal with being near them. Of course everyone gets done and says, "Oh yeah, piece of cake." Like someone else pointed out, you don't want to look weak by complaining about it. But first phase recruits are just...they're done inside hah.

There's less physical abuse yes, but that doesn't mean if a recruit kids gets smart and moves at a DI he's not going to get corrected.

Read 'With the Old Breed'. Eugene Sledge talks about how his DI never, ever got physical with them. If that Marine can do the things he did after not getting physically abused in boot camp, it might not be necessary after all. There's still the instant willing obedience to orders. Third phase recruits are locked on.

I'm not saying that my new Marines show up scared crapless of NCOs like I was. That's different yes, but I blame that not on boot camp but the NCOs they encounter between boot camp and the fleet. Even in the fleet, when I got back from deployment and became Platoon Sergeant, one of the biggest problems I had was getting Corporals and even sergeants in the mindset that they are NOT these Marines friends. That they should be constantly correcting them, leading them, showing them the way to maintain that standard and raise it. I had a new Marine show up without a haircut on Monday and the corporal dealt with it by basically saying to the Marine, "Well, we all make mistakes...I'm gonna give you a ride to get one now and it won't happen again." I went ballistic when I found that that corporal thought that was acceptable. You're on deployment and can't get a haircut? Well, good, that means you're working. You're too busy playing Xbox all day when you know what is expected of you? Unacceptable.

DIs hold the Eagle, Globe and Anchor with just as much honor and respect as those who have gone before and will never, ever give it away.

[Brianhipwell]

Yes, there was a 'different' Boot Camp tears ago. In 1965 we were given a 'pep talk' by our Senior Drill Instructor on pick up day. In short we were confronted with a decision to be trained 'by the book' or the 'Marine Corps way'!

He held up the SOP manual and asked what we wanted. We immediately responded "The Marine Corps way, Sir". (Or words to that affect). He replied with, "Good, lets start now ladies". He threw the manual in the s***can. The 'thumping' started shortly after. Not one of us ratted out the DI's for what they were doing. It was something we expected.

[tracs1833]

* If I get off tangent or start to ramble, forgive me... I'm on some strong medication and I'm reading and writing on this forum as a way to distract myself from some recent issues.

Scott,
Marine, if you start to ramble or get off tangent...don't sweat the small stuff. You've got buddies here and they will not be offended. H**l, I ramble enough without any excuse such as taking meds. You wanna post something, fire away.
Semper Fi, Marine

[PFCWellsUSMC]

OORAH!!! First off Semper Fi brothers and sisters. I graduated boot camp on march 4th 2011 and in my personal opinion the Marine Corps has gone soft on the DI side. I would have liked no more than to get punched when i f-ed up as a recruit but change happens and apparently society just doesnt see the USMC like they used to. I agree that they need to revert back to the old ways. I see fat recruits walking across the parade deck on grad day with 3xl kakhi shirts on and they think they earned it. I graduated from MCRD SD and i will say i came out in the same shape i went into bootcamp in and i put out throughout bootcamp. Goodnight and Semper Fi my brothers and sister.


OORAH!!!

[advanced]

Just a thought. Instead of killing all those gooks, if we had had had this pc training back in the 60's we might have been able to just talk it out with them.

Another thought Dave, what if we had been trained under the current conditions back in the day?

[advanced]

I know, it was just a joke. One of the biggest reasons I did not accept OCS out of PI was the fact that after getting the **** knocked out of me all those weeks during PI, I sure as hell didn't want to go through that again at Quantico.

[advanced]

I don't think they do come out the same. And we certainly didn't have any bad attitudes, as you remember we had motivation platoon and the dreaded CCP (turning large rocks into small rocks.) And no one graduated "fat bodies."

As many here know, we were trained to never stop, never quit, never give up. The single most important lesson that I personally learned at PI was that no matter how bad things can get, they can get worse. That's what got me through so many of those days and nights in the Arizona.

I guess that the way they're turning out Marines today might work in this high tech computer age warfare, but I can't see how they would have survived back in the stone-age with us where it just took gigantic balls and the ability to just keep clinging to life like we did. Determined to live even while you knew that there just wasn't no way to keep coming out.

[03Foxtrot]

Reference to Ribbon Creek incident, Staff Sgt. M.C. McKeon, Platoon 71, MCRD PI, April 8, 1956. I think he was responsible and accountable for a tragic accident, not being a sadistic, drunk out-of-control, out-of-bounds Drill Instructor, as portrayed in the press. He was made a scape goat by the Marine Corps who was afraid of too much negative publicity and too much knowledge shared about an acceptable but unauthorized method of teaching recruits until this incident demanded official and public change in training.

[03Foxtrot]

Staff Sgt. McKeon died on Veterans Day, November 11, 2003 at the age of 79. <br />
Platoon 71, was his first batch of recruits after he became a Drill Instructor in January, 1956. It was very common and...

[Mongoose]

I don't think they do come out the same. And we certainly didn't have any bad attitudes, as you remember we had motivation platoon and the dreaded CCP (turning large rocks into small rocks.) And no one graduated "fat bodies."

As many here know, we were trained to never stop, never quit, never give up. The single most important lesson that I personally learned at PI was that no matter how bad things can get, they can get worse. That's what got me through so many of those days and nights in the Arizona.

I guess that the way they're turning out Marines today might work in this high tech computer age warfare, but I can't see how they would have survived back in the stone-age with us where it just took gigantic balls and the ability to just keep clinging to life like we did. Determined to live even while you knew that there just wasn't no way to keep coming out.
Russ, anyone that thought bootcamp was to rough, should have spent a few wonderful days in the Arizona, right brother?

[03Foxtrot]

The training that Marine recruits endured and accomplished back then has been given credit as one of the reasons that so few Marines were captured during the Korean War and why the conduct of those Marines that were captured was so superior to the many other Americans, non- Marine, captured by North Korean and Chinese armed forces.

[advanced]

Russ, anyone that thought bootcamp was to rough, should have spent a few wonderful days in the Arizona, right brother?

Billy, I've said often that PI should have been 10 times worse to prepare us for where they sent us.

And Scott, how many of us came home as POW's from the Nam - grunts I mean. They just F---ked our guys up and killed them. They hated us and for good reason.

[03Foxtrot]

Russ,
I don't think very many people still know the particularly difficult war that the Marine grunt fought in I Corps, whatever province it was. I am in no way trying to say or insinuate that we were better or more courageous or more important than any other American fighting man in that war. I am saying that our part in this war of attrition was extremely detrimental to both body and soul and that we did take most of the casualties and inflict an extraordinary amount of death and suffering on our enemies. I can't help but notice what a long and popular thread on here, the one called, "Do you remember Dog Patch" is. My thread would be, "Do you remember No-Name Island and Go Noi Island and the Arizona and Dodge City and An Hoa Combat Base and Antenna Valley. These places, each with a heartache and much blood from we and our brothers, who paid the price in this war of attrition, these are the memories that we carry and this is why my boot camp experiences pale in comparison to what actually happened a short time after.
Semper Fi Bro

[advanced]

Russ,
I don't think very many people still know the particularly difficult war that the Marine grunt fought in I Corps, whatever province it was. I am in no way trying to say or insinuate that we were better or more courageous or more important than any other American fighting man in that war. I am saying that our part in this war of attrition was extremely detrimental to both body and soul and that we did take most of the casualties and inflict an extraordinary amount of death and suffering on our enemies. I can't help but notice what a long and popular thread on here, the one called, "Do you remember Dog Patch" is. My thread would be, "Do you remember No-Name Island and Go Noi Island and the Arizona and Dodge City and An Hoa Combat Base and Antenna Valley. These places, each with a heartache and much blood from we and our brothers, who paid the price in this war of attrition, these are the memories that we carry and this is why my boot camp experiences pale in comparison to what actually happened a short time after.
Semper Fi Bro

Thanks Scott. Yes, my year in the fun and the sun took me to all those places you mentioned including Hue and the Hook and Happy Valley (really bad one there). My home was An Hoa. I learned to love like never before and I learned to hate deep down in my core. That Marine Corps, the one we were in, was totally formidable.

Then one day they came and told me I was going home. So I turned in my weapons, said good by to my brothers that were left with tears in my eye, and I went home and lived happily after....except for.....

[TheReservist]

Funny thing is, Marines today are doing multiple deployments fighting a multifront war while helping to clean up Japan, standing ready for Libya, fighting pirates at sea, training foreign militaries and are ready for whatever else comes down the pipe.

Boot camp is just a small first step to make a basic Marine. Then that Marine gets even more training to involve "hyperrealistic" training with simulated VBIEDS, IEDs, medical treatment for amputations and a month long exercise of mojave viper (or whatever it's called now for afghanistan).

[03Foxtrot]

Russ,
I too went from a full immersion in war to civilian life in what seemed almost overnight. And like you brother, I lived happily ever after, that's the official story anyway. You and I and Billy and countless other survivors share much my friend.
As far as extra training, the only school I went to, in country, was Mine, Demolition and Booby Trap School and I believe it was for only three or four days. What really taught me what I needed to know about such devices was walking point. As you know, if you can't see or smell or hear or sense the enemy or a booby trap in time, you quickly become a statistic and I saw many a good man pay the price for walking the grunt way instead of having the luxury of riding.
Take care gentlemen, Scott

[Mongoose]

Funny thing is, Marines today are doing multiple deployments fighting a multifront war while helping to clean up Japan, standing ready for Libya, fighting pirates at sea, training foreign militaries and are ready for whatever else comes down the pipe.

Boot camp is just a small first step to make a basic Marine. Then that Marine gets even more training to involve "hyperrealistic" training with simulated VBIEDS, IEDs, medical treatment for amputations and a month long exercise of mojave viper (or whatever it's called now for afghanistan).
Well, I could say they are lucky today,to get all that training before being deployed. Grunts in our day went to bootcamp, ITR, and staging bn. Most of our training was on the job dodging rounds. We didnt have but one front, but no one told us which direction it was in. We slept in the mud and rain, what little we got. Wore utilities that rotted off you in a few weeks exposing mold and fungus growing in your ears, legs and on your feet. We were lucky to bathe once a month and never had enough food or sleep or medical supplies. We were always being eaten on by bugs and lost 20 or 30 lbs first month in country. We learned to love our brothers and hate our enemy with a passion. We spent on an average of 240 days out of a year in actual combat. The rest of the time we worried about snipers, booby traps, malaria, dysentery, and jungle rot. But most of all, we took care of each other. Bootcamp gave us disciplin. And thats what got us through the Nam. That and our brother Marines.

[m14ed]

***We/my boot platoon/ had a recruit who didnt like the way he was treated when he screwed up. Wrote a nice letter home to his mother/family, She contacted one of her political representitives....,,,,,Friggin crap rolled down hill......seems the only complaint from the platoon was from that recruit.....the rest of us hadnt seen or heard anything of the kind.....Never did hear that he graduated.....his name was Petit...one of them things you remember for a lifetime i guess.

[TheReservist]

Well, I could say they are lucky today,to get all that training before being deployed. Grunts in our day went to bootcamp, ITR, and staging bn. Most of our training was on the job dodging rounds. We didnt have but one front, but no one told us which direction it was in. We slept in the mud and rain, what little we got. Wore utilities that rotted off you in a few weeks exposing mold and fungus growing in your ears, legs and on your feet. We were lucky to bathe once a month and never had enough food or sleep or medical supplies. We were always being eaten on by bugs and lost 20 or 30 lbs first month in country. We learned to love our brothers and hate our enemy with a passion. We spent on an average of 240 days out of a year in actual combat. The rest of the time we worried about snipers, booby traps, malaria, dysentery, and jungle rot. But most of all, we took care of each other. Bootcamp gave us disciplin. And thats what got us through the Nam. That and our brother Marines.

And our generation learned from yours, especially as the senior officers were from your era. My generation is lucky to have the technology that it has today, fire retardant suits so that you didn't get burned alive if the IED didn't burn you up, systems nowadays to tell you where mortar fire is coming from (although the enemy knows the way around it), and better armor in general.So nowadays instead of spending a month without taking a shower, it was down to about 2 weeks

[AdminAssassin]

Those field showers are nice I will admit that. The quality of life you have in bootcamp now depends on which drill instructors you get, some will hit you and some will not. They mess with you alot, I'll give an example: My kill hat took 10 of us down to the sandpit and made all of us fill every pocket on our cammies with sand, take it back up to the third deck where my squad bay was and spread it all around the back half of the squad bay. Then the whole rest of the platoon did it, and after that we poured all of our aqua velva stuff on the floor to make it a "beach". In conclusion, we "island hopped" to all the sandpits around the battalion(1st Bn) to put the sand we had back out. All because I said something about a beach trip after graduation, which was still 9 weeks away lol. I would have loved taking a punch to the gut or the face than doing all that stupid crap. We got smoked regularly anyways, as we were the booger platoon the whole time.
1st Bn, Company B, Plt 1042

[AdminAssassin]

To add to my previous post, one thing still bothers me about boot camp. We had approximately 5 recruits that did not make it 100% through the Crucible and they still got to graduate with me. ****es me the f**k off actually and come to find out you only have to finish a certain percentage of the Crucible. One guy barely made it halfway before he lost too much sodium and kept cramping, matter of fact he couldnt even be at the ceremony to graduate as he was in the hospital even a week after he fell out. They should have been recycled and finished the Crucible, sorry for ranting.

[thebigticker]

From one who respects all who've gone through Boot Camp then and now.

If Boot was today what it was then...the Corps would quickly graduate from "The Few the Proud" to "The VERY Few the Proud".

The world has changed and it will till the end.

The liberties, freedom and success of this Country you fought for has afforded this generation the luxuries it has...and it seems we are somewhat spoiled for it. I suppose that is a hard thing to swallow recognizing the cost of it and our current society's willingness to squander it.

I'll own up to the fact that it becomes the parents of this next generation to instill an appreciation for that.

From my own experience my family was closest and appreciated things the most when we had the least. What becomes difficult is to still appreciate them when we become accustomed and are blessed with those things we never had before.

[HAWK0331]

I suppose that most have seen this at some time or another but here it is again, just in case.

Dear Ma and Pa,
I am well. Hope you are too.
The Marine Corps beats working for old man Minch by a mile. I was restless at first because you got to stay in bed till nearly 5:00 a.m., but am getting so I like to sleep late.

Tell brother Walt and brother Elmer that all you do in the Marines before breakfast is smooth your cot and shine some things. No hogs to slop, feed to pitch, mash to mix, wood to split, fire to lay. Practically nothing. Men got to shave but it is not so bad -- there's warm water.
A Marine Corps breakfast is strong on trimmings like fruit juice, cereal, eggs, bacon, etc., but kind of weak on chops, potatoes, ham, steak, fried eggplant, pie and other regular food. But tell Walt and Elmer you can always sit between two city boys that live on coffee. Their food plus yours holds you till noon, when you get fed again. It's no wonder these city boys can't walk much.
As Marines we're expected to go on "route" marches, which the Platoon Sergeant says are long walks to harden us. If he thinks so, it is not my place to tell him different. A "route march" is about as far as to our mailbox at home. Then the city guys get sore feet and we all ride back in trucks. The country is nice, but awful flat. The Sergeant is like a schoolteacher. He nags some.
The Captain is like the school board. Majors and Colonels just ride around and frown. They don't bother you none.
This next will kill Walt and Elmer with laughing. I keep getting medals for shooting. I don't know why. The bullseye is near as big as a chipmunk head and don't move. And it ain't shooting at you, like the Higgett boys at home. All you got to do is lie there all comfortable and hit it. You don't even load your own cartridges. They come in boxes.
Then we have what they call hand-to-hand combat training. You get to wrestle with them city boys. I have to be real careful though, they break real easy. It ain't like fighting with that ol' bull at home. I'm about the best they got in this except for that Tug Jordan from over in Silver Lake. He joined up the same time as me. But I'm only 5'6" and 130 pounds and he's 6'8" and weighs near 300 pounds dry.
Be sure to tell Walt and Elmer to hurry and join before other fellers get onto this setup and come stampeding in.
Your loving daughter,
Tammy Gail

[That1guy221]

I just graduated a week ago and I'll say what I said in my own thread, my entire platoon got hit, tackled, choked, etc on a daily basis, every other word out of a DI's mouth was f*ck, my first week we we're kept awake by the firewatch screaming their report while the DI's scream at them "LOUDER!!!!", we were IT'd the dogsh*t out of for no reason a lot of the time, and just about everything I hear people say doesn't happen in boot anymore because it's "PC", happened to my platoon. Sh*t, the officers would curse at us!

[That1guy221]

My DI's would always sit us down and explain to us how that sorta treatment was necessary in boot camp and we all agreed. I mean, isn't that what we thought we were getting into anyway?

[m14ed]

I just graduated a week ago and I'll say what I said in my own thread, my entire platoon got hit, tackled, choked, etc on a daily basis, every other word out of a DI's mouth was f*ck, my first week we we're kept awake by the firewatch screaming their report while the DI's scream at them "LOUDER!!!!", we were IT'd the dogsh*t out of for no reason a lot of the time, and just about everything I hear people say doesn't happen in boot anymore because it's "PC", happened to my platoon. Sh*t, the officers would curse at us!


Maybe there is hope for the free world "afterall"

[bausmc87]

I understand the PC BS in the world today and it is very frustrating. the object is to build Marines from the ground up. Take the private/recruit who thinks his crap does not smell, break them down and rebuild them. Take a weaker private/recruit and build him up. the part that really bothers me is when they write home to mommy and their Senator and tell them they took a jab to the rib cage or worse (probably) deserved for screwing up. been there done that. Did I complain? No I took what was deserved and carried on as ordered. The wussification of this country need to stop.

[Cardboardbox]

I understand the PC BS in the world today and it is very frustrating. the object is to build Marines from the ground up. Take the private/recruit who thinks his crap does not smell, break them down and rebuild them. Take a weaker private/recruit and build him up. the part that really bothers me is when they write home to mommy and their Senator and tell them they took a jab to the rib cage or worse (probably) deserved for screwing up. been there done that. Did I complain? No I took what was deserved and carried on as ordered. The wussification of this country need to stop.

I believe we are still the only branch that's allowed to physically touch recruits without permission. I'm doing MOS school with the Air Force and they told me that their MTIs had to ask permission to touch them. I was baffled at that, but that just shows you that the USMC is the most disciplined branch and always will be.

[Old Marine]

You cannot make an adjustment on a Pvt. without touching them. Adjustments are made constantly during drill and teaching Pvts how to salute. Unless a Marine has been a Marine Drill Instructor there is just no way that a non Drill Instructor would understand the basics of teaching each and every thing that a Pvt needs to know before graduating from Recruit Training.

The most rewarding and best job is the Corps is being a Drill Instructor.

[Old Marine]

By the way. Since there are a few of us on this board that went through Boot Camp before the ribbon creek incident which changed the whole training concept of Recruit Training, I have too say that Boot Camp has changed. It will never return back to the way it was before McKeon stepped on his crank. Those who went through Boot Camp before ribbon creek know what I am talking about. Each and every day for me was an eye opening experience that I will never ever forget. On the bayonet coarse we even used real bayonets. We had smokers on Sunday where Recruits beat hell out of each other. At San Deigo we never saw the big grinder until final drill day. When we were marching we had better dig our heels in and make them pop to get a good cadence. It was very seldom that our Drill Instructors ever had to call cadence. There was no such thing as heel contusions or Special Training Branch. Never had the crutch brigade following the platoon around. Never wore tennis shoes in Boot Camp. Wore boon dockers and boots and upon graduation had to have new heels installed as the heels were worn out.

These were the good ole days of the Corps.

[FistFu68]

:evilgrin: You YoungBucks still give out BLANKET PARTIES Or were ever on tha Receiving end of One? :confused: :iwo:

[SWRIGHT0321]

i went to bootcamp 3 years ago. physically was not hard. I went to SERE earlier this year and i kept seeing similarities from being in a prison camp to being back at bootcamp. Though bootcamp might not be ask physically hard, it still gets the job done. all the marines there handled it just fine and the navy acted pathetic.

[ridingcrops]

I hope the change is for the better but I have my doubts. I had a young guy answer me about it once saying the Marines don't need to shoot anymore since they fight wars with laptops. So if you find yourself in a nice rear area and they attack do you throw your laptop at them?

[vets rep]

I went to MCRD San Diego for boot camp in 2000. It was a ball breaker for me. 2nd week in, a DI smashed a kid in the head with his hygiene bag, busted his head open had to get stitches. Everyone called him scarface after that. The DI got in big trouble, but was back drilling us a week later.

Then....another DI, while practicing rifle drill, roughly grabbed a kids rifle, and in doing so, accidently hit the kid on top of the eye with the front sight post, sending another kid to medical with a busted head and more stitches.

They made us drink so much water that it was not uncommon to see recruits **** themselves or even better, **** into their laundry bags when the DI's weren't looking. The reason for this was often, if you requested to make a head call, they would make you down a canteen before you did--causing you to need to **** again in about 10 minutes.

The best was when ever we did rifle drill a few of the DI's loved to knuckle punch us right in the ribs---hurt like hell. Whenever the DI's would walk the line during rilfe drill, you could see the recruits tighten up their bodies in case one of the DI decided to jab a knuckle in the side of their ribs.

I agree, for physically fit people who played lots of sports in High School, boot camp wasn't that tough, but for many, like myself, who spent highschool playing video games, the PT was intense.

I don't know about now, but I remember having to do a million push ups, flutter kicks, and running my ass off every morning.

Would I do it again --- Hell YA!

[Old Marine]

I went to MCRD San Diego for boot camp in 2000. It was a ball breaker for me. 2nd week in, a DI smashed a kid in the head with his hygiene bag, busted his head open had to get stitches. Everyone called him scarface after that. The DI got in big trouble, but was back drilling us a week later.

Then....another DI, while practicing rifle drill, roughly grabbed a kids rifle, and in doing so, accidently hit the kid on top of the eye with the front sight post, sending another kid to medical with a busted head and more stitches.

They made us drink so much water that it was not uncommon to see recruits **** themselves or even better, **** into their laundry bags when the DI's weren't looking. The reason for this was often, if you requested to make a head call, they would make you down a canteen before you did--causing you to need to **** again in about 10 minutes.

The best was when ever we did rifle drill a few of the DI's loved to knuckle punch us right in the ribs---hurt like hell. Whenever the DI's would walk the line during rilfe drill, you could see the recruits tighten up their bodies in case one of the DI decided to jab a knuckle in the side of their ribs.

I agree, for physically fit people who played lots of sports in High School, boot camp wasn't that tough, but for many, like myself, who spent highschool playing video games, the PT was intense.

I don't know about now, but I remember having to do a million push ups, flutter kicks, and running my ass off every morning.

Would I do it again --- Hell YA!

If your Drill Instructors actually did what you are saying they did, all who participated should be ran up with the morning colors. (Not only is it against regs, but they must not have been very smart and put their careers on the line.) Sounds to me like all they did was have beat downs and didn't teach, which is what they should have been doing.

Good thing I was not the series GySgt. (if they still have those) because they would have been standing tall in front of the man if I had seen any of it. There will always be a few Drill Instructors who think they become God when they put on that Smokey. Some do not have since enouth to realize that they are only bringing rain down on all their brother Drill Instructors and the Marine Corps.

[vets rep]

If your Drill Instructors actually did what you are saying they did, all who participated should be ran up with the morning colors. (Not only is it against regs, but they must not have been very smart and put their careers on the line.)

Aye, my story is true -- I swear on chesty's grave. The occasional jab in the ribs wasn't so bad. It was the water torture that killed all of us. Anytime we messed up the DI's would say "You guys must be suffering from Dehydration, get out your canteens and drink" --

As a result of my boot camp training, I can hold my pee for an ungodly amount of time....

But...honestly, all though boot camp was tough, it did prepare us for what came afterward. Most of the recruits (at least the 03's) from platoon 3113 were part of RCT-5, one of the first units to cross the border into Iraq...and most of us ended up doing multiple tours in Iraq.

It might be wrong, but I think a lot of marines look back fondly at all the crazy hazing we had to endure in boot camp.

[Old Marine]

Hazing is one thing (Also against regs), Maltreatment is something else again. I'm not saying it does not go on, but when it is premedatiated, there are no excuses. All Drill Instructors lose it at one time or another, otherwise they would not be human, but a Drill Instructor who plans before drill that he is going to beat down recruits/recruit, deserves whatever punishment he receives if he is guilty of the infraction.

[Marine1011]

hazing, maltreatment, its all necessary to produce fighting Marines

[FistFu68]

:marine: Since I was tha Platoon HOUSEMOUSE,makes Me glad I ain't in now 'cause don't know how I'd Handle The New Corps. Drill Instructors giving Each other a Reach Around :sick: :iwo:

[tripledog]

LOL Old Marine, in my days in boot camp, what he described is hourly teachings. Good thing these younguns dont have to worry about the swagger sticks anymore.

[Old Marine]

Tripledog: Yea, those swagger sticks were really great. Its also a good thing they don't have to worry about haversacks and knapsacks with "M" BUCKLES that hurt like the devil when they bounced off the side of your head. But it did get everyones attention.

[EGTSpec]

<CAPITALIZATION p in.< live we period Sad intended). indeed.<CAPITALIZATION sad Sad,>

[EGTSpec]

:marine: Since I was tha Platoon HOUSEMOUSE,makes Me glad I ain't in now 'cause don't know how I'd Handle The New Corps. Drill Instructors giving Each other a Reach Around :sick: :iwo:The pussification of my beloved Corps is almost complete. Just need to un-capitalize "Marine". Sad sad times indeed.