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advanced
03-02-11, 09:56 AM
The Supreme Court has ruled in favor of Westboro Baptist Church. PGR will need to stand up more now. Ruling based on Free Speech.

USNAviator
03-02-11, 10:31 AM
The Supreme Court has ruled in favor of Westboro Baptist Church. PGR will need to stand up more now. Ruling based on Free Speech.

Only one of 9 manned up

"Only Justice Samuel Alito dissented. He said the church's "outrageous conduct caused petitioner great injury, and the court now compounds that injury by depriving petitioner of a judgment that acknowledges the wrong he suffered," he said. "In order to have a society in which public issues can be openly and vigorously debated, it is not necessary to allow the brutalization of innocent victims like petitioner."

hbharrison
03-02-11, 10:45 AM
And one shall stand alone!!

crazymjb
03-02-11, 01:00 PM
Are you guys serious? You swear an oath to the constitution. The first amendment is "the right to free speech" not "the right to free speech except when it offends Marines or is mean or ethically and morally questionable." The founding fathers would have COMPLETELY supported this decision, to say otherwise is ridiculous.

Don't get me wrong, I hate the WBC guys and think they are jerks (putting it nicely), but I signed up to defend free speech to include their RIGHT to be jerks, even towards me and those who have fallen. If you disagree and think some speech should be censored you need to take a serious look at what you are doing in the Marine Corps.

Mike

advanced
03-02-11, 01:30 PM
Are you guys serious? You swear an oath to the constitution. The first amendment is "the right to free speech" not "the right to free speech except when it offends Marines or is mean or ethically and morally questionable." The founding fathers would have COMPLETELY supported this decision, to say otherwise is ridiculous.

Don't get me wrong, I hate the WBC guys and think they are jerks (putting it nicely), but I signed up to defend free speech to include their RIGHT to be jerks, even towards me and those who have fallen. If you disagree and think some speech should be censored you need to take a serious look at what you are doing in the Marine Corps.

Mike

Kid, you are jumping the gun. In defending a bunch of a*******s you are condemning other Marines for practicing their free speech.

Kid, you're a little too young to understand, you see many of us here still remember the taste of freedom, we go back that far. As part of my sig says "Washington did not use his right of free speech to defeat the British; He Shot Them."

USNAviator
03-02-11, 01:50 PM
Dave excellent examples. The SCOTUS also ruled that burning of the flag was an exercise of free speech. Try going to a Presidential campaign speech, stand up and start trying to argue with him. Your First Amendment rights will quickly be terminated

I had the misfortune last year to attend the funeral of a son of a friend of mine. He was a SEAL, KIA in Iraq. I saw up close and personal the venom these people spewed. Thank God for the Patriot Riders and other Veterans groups who stood between the family and these "church members".

Kegler300
03-02-11, 01:52 PM
There are limits to peaceful assembly and free speech...this is one that should've been upheld by the court.

CrockettJW
03-02-11, 01:55 PM
Free speech is free speech. But it is used for everything under the sun, no matter how much it needs to be stretched.
It is a law in some states that you cannot interfere with a funeral procession. Kansas legislators could try to make a law that forbids interference with funerals themselves, and see if that is unconstitutional, so that is one avenue.
I agree that free speech is what the First Amendment is all about, but why is it that yelling "fire" in a crowded theatre is not free speech?
Because of other competing considerations. Why can't you pick up a police radio and just start transmitting whatever you want to transmit? Isn't that free speech?
How about the floor of the US Senate and the floor of the House, how about someone yelling during sessions? Free speech? or not?
If not, why not? Interfering with their sessions? How about interfering with someone's funeral?
So you see it is not free speech come hell or high water, it is free speech within the context of competing interests, other compelling interests.
There is no such thing as absolute free speech, there never has been, and there never will be.
Next time you want to try it out, go into a movie theater and just start making a speech, and see how far "Free Speech" will get you.
There is no such thing as unlimited free speech.
Our forefathers, I can virtually guarantee you, would not have sighed and said oh well, we'll let our funerals be disrupted. That is a given. They were big on free speech, but not idiotic about it.

I agree with you completely, but I wanted to add a few more limits on free speech besides the ones you listed in making your point. You also can't make false, libelous, and slanderous statements about a person or business.

I think Fred Phelps has some kind of mental problem. He was disbarred after making false statements about a woman he was in a legal case against.

His family is also questionable. They sound like they're brain-washed.

CrockettJW
03-02-11, 02:05 PM
Again, I agree. I think they hide behind the free speech to protect them while they're out there saying whatever they want to say.

Personally, I don't agree with any of what they do, whether it's against veterans or their "God hates fags" campaigns or any that I've heard from them.

This guy even wrote a letter to Saddam Hussein and visited Iraq to protest the war. He's a real nut.

crazymjb
03-02-11, 03:48 PM
I guess I'm just a kid who doesn't know anything about freedom so you can disregard this post. Yelling fire in a crowded theater directly causes people to die, infinging on their liberty. Committing lible spreads false information about one as fact, causing harm to them or their ability to do business, etc, infringing on their liberty. Disrupting emergency transmissions by keying a mic also causes people to die, infringing on their liberty. Standing across the street from a funeral is in bad taste, and isn't a kind thing to do, but is not in the same category as the examples you gave. If these people are making false claims about someone, or preventing the procession from happening, that becomes a different issue.

WRT to if you are in a private theater, you are on private property. If you do anything the theater owners don't like, they can kick you out for trespassing. If you don't leave, they get to call the cops. You don't have the same rights on private property that you do at home and on public land, you don't get to infringe on that property owners own rights on his own property.

Regardless of what you think I know, I assure you I do know what freedom is. I am opposed to adding more laws against when and about what people can speak out against publicly, to include groups like WBC. If you think my position is at the expense of other Marines and I an putting WBC first, you are wrong. I am putting our constitution first as I and you swore to put before our own lives and those of our brothers. Just as I won't follow illegal orders I won't put my emotional response towards a certain group ahead of the values I hold true.

Mike

advanced
03-02-11, 04:09 PM
Kid - What you do not seem to understand is that many of the laws and rulings today are purely political. You have a so called president that got elected by misrepresenting himself to non-thinkers who thought they wanted change. This deer leader breaks the law and the constitution all the time and continues to misrepresent himself.

No Marine here has broken the law or violated the Constitution. We as Marines, will never surrender our rights as Americans to ***** and point out unjustness wherever we find it.

No one is calling you stupid, just naive maybe. You certainly have the right to speak your mind and everyone here would help you defend that right. We, perhaps a little more seasoned, have the right to totally disagree with you.

I'm one of those Patriot Guard Riders. If not for a snow storm up in Kansas, which cancelled their travel plans, the Westboro bunch were on their way to Tampa to interrupt a funeral of the 2 kids killed by their mother last month. The father was an officer at McDill. They have their rights, we have our rights to drown them out and make them invisible.

CrockettJW
03-02-11, 04:15 PM
I guess I'm not the kind of person who can put aside one belief to support another.

I really don't think what WBC does can be classified as freedom of speech. No one is telling them they can't say the things they say. No one is telling them they can't have their beliefs.

I disagree with WBC and despise what they do and what they stand for. Even if I agreed with them, I couldn't support them because what they do amounts to harassment, not free speech.

Traveling to the location of a dead serviceman (or any person) and disrupting the funeral should be a crime. I don't care if they're on public property or not. If you live across the street from me and you play your music too loud, I'm going to call the police. The police will show up and tell you (on your own property) to turn your music down because it's disrupting what I'm doing. The people of WBC do the same thing.

crazymjb
03-02-11, 04:28 PM
When I get back and get a bike I fully intend to join the local PGR chapter. I have friends who ride with them and have seen them at funerals, and fully support them drowning out WBC.

In terms of the illegalities of what our government does, I also fully agree. This admin just renewed Bushes patriot act. That is unfortunate. There are plenty of other examples. I am not about to give the government one more thing to make illegal. This just happens to be one of the things the SCOTUS got right.

I cannot and will not support any law that prevents someone from protesting at the site of a funeral. Sorry. Plenty of older less naive people then me share my viewpoint.

Mike

CrockettJW
03-02-11, 04:38 PM
When I get back and get a bike I fully intend to join the local PGR chapter. I have friends who ride with them and have seen them at funerals, and fully support them drowning out WBC.

In terms of the illegalities of what our government does, I also fully agree. This admin just renewed Bushes patriot act. That is unfortunate. There are plenty of other examples. I am not about to give the government one more thing to make illegal. This just happens to be one of the things the SCOTUS got right.

I cannot and will not support any law that prevents someone from protesting at the site of a funeral. Sorry. Plenty of older less naive people then me share my viewpoint.

Mike

I don't mean to start an argument, but I can't see the logic in saying that you agree that they have freedom of speech by protesting at a funeral and at the same time say that you would go and disrupt their protest of the funeral. In that way, if they have a right to free speech, by your actions, aren't you denying them their free speech?

Keep in mind that I don't agree that what WBC does is free speech and that your action does not deny them of their right to free speech.

CrockettJW
03-02-11, 04:55 PM
I guess that's not quite as bad as when General Order #1 got in my way of downloading "art."

crazymjb
03-02-11, 06:00 PM
The government disallowing someone to speak is quite different than the people. If someone chooses to spread their message by spouting it in the streets, they must be ready for someone to shout over them.

The reason permitting is required for peaceful assembly is because large assemblies in modern urban areas can cause issues that require prior planning. It is my belief that an assembly should never be forbidden, but asking for the authorities to be alerted for planning purposes before hand is not unreasonable.

I understand the difference between disruption and protest. If one chooses to hold a funeral at a cemetery that is in close proximity to a public way, unfortunately, they must be prepared to deal with noises and disturbances that come from that public way.

I also do concede that the SCOTUS is not always correct in their decision. That said, based off my interpretation and understanding of the constitution I believe they came to the correct decision in this case.

Mike

HST
03-02-11, 06:00 PM
Go Dave! We may not be able to stop them but we can sure get on the street in front of them and show them what parts of us they can kiss.

hooeboy
03-02-11, 06:53 PM
The Supreme Court has ruled in favor of Westboro Baptist Church. PGR will need to stand up more now. Ruling based on Free Speech.
Thats just a shame. It is people like them that give America a bad image. Funerals are for giving last respects, not an opportunity to catch some publicity and protest.

Carpshooter
03-02-11, 07:06 PM
Go Dave! We may not be able to stop them but we can sure get on the street in front of them and show them what parts of us they can kiss.

I agree !:D

CrockettJW
03-02-11, 07:07 PM
The government disallowing someone to speak is quite different than the people. If someone chooses to spread their message by spouting it in the streets, they must be ready for someone to shout over them.

The reason permitting is required for peaceful assembly is because large assemblies in modern urban areas can cause issues that require prior planning. It is my belief that an assembly should never be forbidden, but asking for the authorities to be alerted for planning purposes before hand is not unreasonable.

I understand the difference between disruption and protest. If one chooses to hold a funeral at a cemetery that is in close proximity to a public way, unfortunately, they must be prepared to deal with noises and disturbances that come from that public way.

I also do concede that the SCOTUS is not always correct in their decision. That said, based off my interpretation and understanding of the constitution I believe they came to the correct decision in this case.

Mike

How much flexibility do you have in choosing a funeral location? I don't think it's a fair statement to say that if you choose to hold a funeral at a cemetery that is in close proximity to a public way, you have to be prepared to deal with disturbances that come from that public way when those disturbances are intentionally created.

hooeboy
03-02-11, 07:08 PM
Agreed. It is essentially up to social pressures to drown them out. If it is frowned upon by enough people, their message will carry no weight.

hooeboy
03-02-11, 07:16 PM
Tough to put pressure on people like that, who are just glorying in their victory today.
I don't think they'll stop unless and until some legal action actually goes thru, which will carry sanctions if they don't stop doing what they're doing. But these folks don't know the meaning of stopping on their own, no matter what pressure.
If the courts end up getting involved, Westboro will stop, but I don't think they will until then, they have to have an outlet for all that hatred.
Unfortunately, your right. All we can do until then is plug our ears and turn the other cheek ( If we don't feel like giving them a piece of our own minds that is)

CrockettJW
03-02-11, 07:25 PM
It's just a matter of time before they cross paths with someone crazier and more violent than they are.

hooeboy
03-02-11, 07:29 PM
Just like the saying, "live by the sword, die by the sword". Karma will get them sooner or later.

hbharrison
03-02-11, 07:35 PM
All I know is this ruling has started a sh*t storm around here and people want justice anyway they can get it. I have prayed it would never come to this but the feelings are getting strong and some may just take it to the next step. And yes there are some around here that are just that crazy.

USNAviator
03-02-11, 08:03 PM
All I know is this ruling has started a sh*t storm around here and people want justice anyway they can get it. I have prayed it would never come to this but the feelings are getting strong and some may just take it to the next step. And yes there are some around here that are just that crazy.

Butch you live fairly close to these inbreds. Do they have a compound like the Branch Dividians?

USNAviator
03-02-11, 08:12 PM
I get your drift, Commander Dan.
Or is it "catch your drift"? or both?


LOL counselor. You remember the Davidians Dave, splinter group of the 7th Day Adventists? They did not have a happy ending

USNAviator
03-02-11, 09:23 PM
Yes, I do, that's why I said I get your drift, i.e. I understand the reference, to the Branch Davidians in Waco, Texas and the FBI involvement-----


So what's your take on this? Different scenarios obviously but they may come to a bad end as well. I think Butch mentioned awhile back they do have a compound

EGTSpec
03-02-11, 09:57 PM
I hear you, Butch, but it would be too bad to allow those folks to win by drawing regular people into the situation of getting arrested. But that is the way it often happens.Having been raised in the same town and surrounding towns to the one Butch lives in I know the people there, and their attitudes. I have aunts, uncles, cousins, and one brother who live in Topeka, and the surrounding towns. The small town boys are the rowdy, lets get drunk and whoop on one another types. WBC has a Church in Topeka, just 30 miles from Butch. I've seen it. They stand out at the curb with banners, and signs. Bunch of certifiable nutcases. The locals claim they are inbreds of the Jim Jones variety. I tend to think that also. WBC gets all their legal chit done by a member of the family they sent to law school, so bankrupting them with legal fees for lawyers wont work. Might cost the governement Millions to fight them, but their bill would be in the thousands.

willom
03-03-11, 02:05 AM
Have been riding motorcycles all my life and been on many funeral details with the PG. None are enjoyable but normally well received with respect and thanks. The PG is on a mission to give honor to our warriors and not degrade their service by opposition as much as they would like to at times. It would not break my heart to see some 1% clubs intervene as they have in the past. Hate to throw this into the mix but has anyone thought about charging these folks with discrimination. Last i heard was there are a number of states that honor same sex marriages, therefore they cannot be calling our fallen gay or lesbian in there protests. If I were to protest and mention race I would be shut down on the spot. Maybe we would make better headway looking to the law to put a stop to this crap than to the constitution.

hbharrison
03-03-11, 02:16 AM
Butch you live fairly close to these inbreds. Do they have a compound like the Branch Dividians?

No they do not own a compond they do own one city block which is located int the middle of a residentail area with a 6' fence around it. This is also where the church is located. As to being attorneys yes 10 of them are. I have not been by the place for some time now as I just do not need to by accident or other wise see or meet any of them again in my life time. The Phelps family is about 60 people in all counting children and adults. They have a law firm Phelps Chartered, LLC in Topeka the whole family works out of there.

advanced
03-03-11, 04:37 AM
After the Court ruling I watched the WBC on TV doing their chant "Semper Fi, Semper Fag." It seems the agenda of the church is their attempt to influence the federal govt. to pass laws punishing gays. Therefore, they utilize funerals and families burying their dead as pawns for their own political gains.

With this win and the repeal of DADT watch as this group steps up their agenda.

There is a group of about 9 retired military officers that have filed ethics complaints against the attorneys for this group with the state of Kansas I believe. This was done prior to the court decision.

hbharrison
03-03-11, 05:16 AM
After the Court ruling I watched the WBC on TV doing their chant "Semper Fi, Semper Fag." It seems the agenda of the church is their attempt to influence the federal govt. to pass laws punishing gays. Therefore, they utilize funerals and families burying their dead as pawns for their own political gains.

With this win and the repeal of DADT watch as this group steps up their agenda.

There is a group of about 9 retired military officers that have filed ethics complaints against the attorneys for this group with the state of Kansas I believe. This was done prior to the court decision.

They have already step up the cr*p because of DADT repeal and yes the case was filed with the ethics board before the court ruling been praying that it works. If they loose the ability to practice law they loose the money, loose the money they can not go places they want to go.

USNAviator
03-03-11, 06:24 AM
I salute Albert Snyder, the father of Lance Corporal Matt Snyder, who brought suit against these a$$holes. It was a five year battle and he never wavered. He never gave up because all through these trying times, he knew his son would have done the same thing. Can you imagine how much money this man spent?

BTW, is was five years ago today that Lance Corporal Matt Snyder was KIA

Rest in peace Marine. You've got one hell of a Dad

EGTSpec
03-03-11, 06:26 AM
I salute Albert Snyder, the father of Lance Corporal Matt Snyder, who brought suit against these a$$holes. It was a five year battle and he never wavered. He never gave up because all through these trying times, he knew his son would have done the same thing. Can you imagine how much money this man spent?

BTW, is was five years ago today that Lance Corporal Matt Snyder was KIA

Rest in peace Marine. You've got one hell of a Dad:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

civgrunt05
03-03-11, 03:23 PM
I'd personally love to see some single mom or dad who lost their only child to combat go and mow down every single adult member of this church. Ayn Rand wrote in "Atlas Shrugged" that it is "by our love that they hold us." Quite frankly, that's the only reason I haven't made a personal mission to wipe these people off the face of the earth - not for the sake of my own life but for the sake of my family that would be tortured at the thought of me locked away for life. I hope that someone out there who has lost the only one they love to this war will realize that they can't be held "by their love" anymore and makes worm food out of these pigs.

I take delight in the idea that it will come to fruition. I'd gladly throw my hard earned cash at that individual's legal defense fund.

the802
03-03-11, 04:07 PM
They got off on Free Speech? Then why can't students in public schools say things like 'Gay' or 'Retard' without getting suspended? Happened to me, and the "Free Speech" **** didnt fly...

advanced
03-03-11, 04:10 PM
While these people have had their victory yesterday, do not underestimate the opposition - The Patriot Guard Riders.

When these people started their hate campaign a spontaneous response spread across our country in the form of Veterans and Veteran Supporters who rode motorcycles. The Patriot Guard Riders sprang up almost overnight with chapters all across the country. We are well organized now and we receive emails every day from state and local chapters regarding military funerals.

Many of the riders are retired military, other veterans including many combat vets and plain civilians that support our troops. No one cares what you ride and if you don't have a bike drive there in your car.

The point being these are not men the Westboro bunch wants to mess with. The Westboro people don't like being surrounded by bikers revving up their motors and drowning them out, but they're not stupid. I can only imagine what would happen if one of the PGR riders was struck. The riders are adults and know how far they can go.

If there is no resistance at a military funeral, we all carry our 5x7 flags and stand in a flag line Honoring the departed vet. We are asked to attend many events besides funerals. We have been invited to attend homecomings of young veterans coming home from the current wars and many other positive things.

If you all remember the Gene Hackman movie "Bat 21" or something like that where he was a downed pilot and air crews came into rescue him. We lost several choppers and one of the downed crew was a MIA all these years. Well a few months ago his body was finally recovered and was flown into the Ft. Meyers airport. About 250 of us met the plane and escorted the body with a state trooper escort to the Arcadia, FL. funeral home.

We Don't Forget.

advanced
03-03-11, 04:11 PM
They got off on Free Speech? Then why can't students in public schools say things like 'Gay' or 'Retard' without getting suspended? Happened to me, and the "Free Speech" **** didnt fly...

Good question. I guess you should have appealed to the Supreme Court.

Mongoose
03-03-11, 04:38 PM
I know the good Lord wouldnt forgive me, but it wouldnt bother me one little bit to take one of my old M-60s from Nam and melt the barrel on those azzholes. Even that would be a waste of good ammo.

HST
03-03-11, 05:22 PM
Not trying to start a fight here but you can't beat that kind of hate with hate. It nullifies the principals that these men and women died to protect and preserve.

Russ has it right, we stand tall, we block them from the view of the family, if they try to come through us to exercise their Constitutional Rights, we exercise ours.

EGTSpec
03-03-11, 07:27 PM
I just finished registering with the PGR, and sent off an e-mail to the local chapter Prez. I may not own a MC any more, but I might in the future, and I can at least show my thanks and support, by assisting my local PGR.

If anyone is interested, their web site is here: www.patriotguard.org (http://www.patriotguard.org/)

advanced
03-04-11, 03:30 AM
I just finished registering with the PGR, and sent off an e-mail to the local chapter Prez. I may not own a MC any more, but I might in the future, and I can at least show my thanks and support, by assisting my local PGR.

If anyone is interested, their web site is here: www.patriotguard.org (http://www.patriotguard.org/)

Good going Bob, we need more good men like you. S/F

civgrunt05
03-04-11, 07:04 AM
Not trying to start a fight here but you can't beat that kind of hate with hate. It nullifies the principals that these men and women died to protect and preserve.

Russ has it right, we stand tall, we block them from the view of the family, if they try to come through us to exercise their Constitutional Rights, we exercise ours.

I've got to be honest here and ask that we throw out the "standard answer" for a minute.
How many dead men of ANY American war died for the principle of protecting the rights of people who hated them? Maybe I should be kicked out for this opinion, but I'm willing to bet 97% of enlisted men agree with me. I don't think too many Marines would lay their lives down for the rights of people who spit on them, demand recruiters leave their town, or mock the dead at military funerals. If it were up to me, I'd throw the WBC people to the Al-Qaeda and let them cut off their heads on Al-Jazera.

Of all the Marines I have ever known..... I'm talking every Marine that I can ever remember interacting with, I can think of THREE that I believe as a matter of principle would make the conscience decision to put their lives in immenent danger for the sole purpose of defending the "rights" of people like those of the WBC.

I serve because I think Islamo-facism is more of a threat to us than the Soviet communist empire ever was. When I say a threat to "us" I mean the people like me who believe that no one should tell you how to/you must worship, who believe in a free market system, and who embrace the idea of education and enlightenment. I in no way serve because I have some warm and fuzzy about a 220+ year old document that, despite being among the best documents ever written, is NOT devinely inspired, is often times dangerously vague, and is open to the interpretation of 9 bureaucratically appointed for life individuals who have spent most of their lives sitting on a bench experiencing "law" in a vacuum, some of whom were appointed not for their qualifications but because some president felt their race created a more diverse court.

Mongoose
03-04-11, 07:21 AM
Not trying to start a fight here but you can't beat that kind of hate with hate. It nullifies the principals that these men and women died to protect and preserve.

Russ has it right, we stand tall, we block them from the view of the family, if they try to come through us to exercise their Constitutional Rights, we exercise ours.
Tony my brother, I can see your point of view. And respect it . However, the men and women that died. Died fighting a foreign enemy of the U.S. I can assure you, in thier last moments, thier thoughts were of staying alive and protecting thier brother Marines. I seriously doubt you would find any Marine giving thier life so that those people could continue thier campaign of pure evil. Its like the pork the government throws in bills they pass. Had the issues of today been in existence when I was in the Corps. And someone asked me would I give my life to protect gay rights, or the right to abort babies, or to take Gods name out of everthing. I would have to say not no, but hell no. We have never won a battle slapping the enemies wrist. And make no mistake these people are the enemy. At the very least criminals. I myself consider it a disrespect, to those who died. They surly didnt die so some azzhole could pizz on thier grave. I will gladly die upholding the constitution, as it was meant to be. Not what our dont give a shet lawmakers deem it to mean. I have enough common sense to know our for fathers didnt have this in mind when they wrote the constitution. Just my thoughts.

HST
03-04-11, 07:52 AM
I respect everyones opinion on a subject like this. I read a book years ago in 68 when I was with 2/27 at Pendleton. I still have it and probably owe a ton on money for failing to return it. It's The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich. It's about hate and the slippery slope into the things that essentially good moral people did when they let hate dominate them. I re-read it now and then. It helps me put things in perspective.

I know the Constitution is old and some say its outlived its usefullness but a lot of its principals are based on a book that is far older and still very valid.

EGTSpec
03-04-11, 08:19 AM
I've got to be honest here and ask that we throw out the "standard answer" for a minute.
How many dead men of ANY American war died for the principle of protecting the rights of people who hated them? Maybe I should be kicked out for this opinion, but I'm willing to bet 97% of enlisted men agree with me. I don't think too many Marines would lay their lives down for the rights of people who spit on them, demand recruiters leave their town, or mock the dead at military funerals. If it were up to me, I'd throw the WBC people to the Al-Qaeda and let them cut off their heads on Al-Jazera.

Of all the Marines I have ever known..... I'm talking every Marine that I can ever remember interacting with, I can think of THREE that I believe as a matter of principle would make the conscience decision to put their lives in immenent danger for the sole purpose of defending the "rights" of people like those of the WBC.

I serve because I think Islamo-facism is more of a threat to us than the Soviet communist empire ever was. When I say a threat to "us" I mean the people like me who believe that no one should tell you how to/you must worship, who believe in a free market system, and who embrace the idea of education and enlightenment. I in no way serve because I have some warm and fuzzy about a 220+ year old document that, despite being among the best documents ever written, is NOT devinely inspired, is often times dangerously vague, and is open to the interpretation of 9 bureaucratically appointed for life individuals who have spent most of their lives sitting on a bench experiencing "law" in a vacuum, some of whom were appointed not for their qualifications but because some president felt their race created a more diverse court.Great post! And from a younger generation Marine. It's great to know that principles, honor, morals, and integrity are still instilled in Marines as they were back 35 years ago when I was young and motivated. I know there are exceptions, but the majority of Marines out there, young or old, would agree with you.

ChuckH
03-04-11, 08:39 AM
Being a former Marine and former Assistant State Captain of the CT PGR... this is wrong on so many levels....
Makes my blood boil.....there are some great posts on here... some of you Marines have put what I am feeling in words I couldnt find...Good Job!!!

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03-04-11, 08:52 AM
Tony my brother, I can see your point of view. And respect it . However, the men and women that died. Died fighting a foreign enemy of the U.S. I can assure you, in thier last moments, thier thoughts were of staying alive and protecting thier brother Marines. I seriously doubt you would find any Marine giving thier life so that those people could continue thier campaign of pure evil. Its like the pork the government throws in bills they pass. Had the issues of today been in existence when I was in the Corps. And someone asked me would I give my life to protect gay rights, or the right to abort babies, or to take Gods name out of everthing. I would have to say not no, but hell no. We have never won a battle slapping the enemies wrist. And make no mistake these people are the enemy. At the very least criminals. I myself consider it a disrespect, to those who died. They surly didnt die so some azzhole could pizz on thier grave. I will gladly die upholding the constitution, as it was meant to be. Not what our dont give a shet lawmakers deem it to mean. I have enough common sense to know our for fathers didnt have this in mind when they wrote the constitution. Just my thoughts.

Damn Billy, you send shivers through me when you talk that patriot talk. I'll stand tall by your side. And civgrunt05, well said. HST - get over here bro.

During my time we were trained for one thing, to kill communists any way it took. We didn't look pretty, talk pretty, smell pretty, but there was not a finer bunch of commy killers than those of us in the USMC.

We were trained to make contact, not to run and whine like many in this country do today. Each of us selected our targets and eliminated them and then we moved on for more. Commy / Islamic, what's the difference if they endanger my country.

I joined the MC initially to fight for my country, to uphold the constitution - but ended up fighting to keep myself alive as well as my brother Marines around me. I never swore an allegiance to a president, a senator or a congressman.

MY QUESTION: If the oath I took was to uphold the constitution with my very life, and I now see many of those in political power threatening it's very existence, do you kind of get a drift on my dilemma, especially if my oath is still valid?

The biggest difference is that today we may not have to travel to a far off foreign land to find our enemies, they seem to be everywhere.