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hermit
01-08-11, 09:22 AM
There is a gentleman on other boards that claims his son has been deployed to Iraq seven times and that his son has been awarded the Navy Cross. What can be done about someone like this? Should I contact his son's commanding officer?

elliscraig12
01-08-11, 10:15 AM
Who is he? Do you know this to be a fact? I don't know if you can do anything about it unless he tries to gain from it. Does his son know what he's doing? I,m not sure contacting his C.O. at this point would do much to stop it, unless his son is some how involved.

SGT7477
01-08-11, 10:41 AM
Sounds like Stolen Valor, Semper Fidelis.

hermit
01-08-11, 12:31 PM
Who is he? Do you know this to be a fact? I don't know if you can do anything about it unless he tries to gain from it. Does his son know what he's doing? I,m not sure contacting his C.O. at this point would do much to stop it, unless his son is some how involved.

I know it for a fact that he has said it many times and I have read his posts with it included. I doubt his son knows about it though. So contacting his CO would not be a good idea then? The guy who says it name is Erik "Bill" Thorne from the Phoenix, AZ area. He has posted it on the Las Vegas Review Journal efourms and also on www.city-data.com (http://www.city-data.com) under the names greatday and Greatday.

hermit
01-08-11, 12:37 PM
Hermit, just a thought but it you want to pursue it more, and it is on a message board like you said, then you could ask the father for many details here and there and when he cannot come up with any, at that point you could say, well, it is unusual to get the Navy Cross and not know how your son got it. Gently usher him out the door detail by detail that he fails to provide. That is one way of doing it. And checking on the details he does provide.
And when he provides details that are plainly incorrect, you can say his son's unit was not even in that area on such and such a day, how unusual. Then the dad might seek greener pastures.

He kept claiming it even after I found the list of the real heros who have been awarded the Navy Cross and his son's name is not on the list. He even still claimed that it was after that. He has told two versions for why he was awarded the Navy Cross. One story is for actions performed at the Pentagon on 9/11 and the other for actions in Afghanistan. He also claims that he was shoot in Viet Nam while working as a construction contractor during the war. So this guy likes to make up stories about himself and his family all the time. He also claims to have been to Iraq and Afghanistan as part of the USO bringing Christmas gifts to the troops. Maybe the guy is just a whack job.

hermit
01-08-11, 12:39 PM
It would be really embarrassing for the son to be called in by his CO and others if he doesn't know anything about this, which appears to be the case by what you just posted. What are they going to tell the son, that he has a father who is off the wall?
And maybe the info is true, who knows.
Ask for details, check it out, then if it is not true, confront the dad but not the son.

Is there a way to find out where someone has served in the last ten years so I could check to see if his son has ever been deployed to the ME?

R Landry
01-08-11, 03:47 PM
Figures don't lie, but liers can figure.

thediesel713
01-08-11, 04:07 PM
Have him post a picture of his son wearing the award. Then if its real no worries, but if its fake, proof for Stolen Valor.

USNAviator
01-08-11, 04:39 PM
Not much to be done about it. People do this stuff all the time. Just one person's opinion but by contacting the son's CO you draw attention to the son, who may not have anything at all to do with this, and now he is in the spotlight with his CO and others.


Have to agree with Dave about this. Seven deployments is an extraordinary high number but the Navy Cross is another matter all together.

Is the son telling the father that he has been awarded the N.C. or is this coming solely from the Dad?. If it's from Dad then there is no reason for a sh$t storm to descend upon the son. Back off from telling the CO

If it's just the old man then he has problems you nor I nor anyone else here can fix.

Marine1955
01-08-11, 05:56 PM
I know it for a fact that he has said it many times and I have read his posts with it included. I doubt his son knows about it though. So contacting his CO would not be a good idea then? The guy who says it name is Erik "Bill" Thorne from the Phoenix, AZ area. He has posted it on the Las Vegas Review Journal efourms and also on www.city-data.com (http://www.city-data.com) under the names greatday and Greatday.



http://i55.tinypic.com/2yuhppx.jpg

All out assault if he's lying

hrscowboy
01-08-11, 09:54 PM
Hermit, I for one will tell you who are you to come in this forum and question anyone?? first thing first you havent even filled out a profile according to the rules of leatherneck.com so get busy and get that done first. gentlemen also let me remind some of you that the stolen valor act has been proven unconstitutional and is now under the eyes of our Supreme Court I dont believe they have ruled on it as of it. I for one dont have a problem burning someones arse for stolen valor, but as of now its up to the courts. Hermit get your profile done or get out of my house..

dibob
01-08-11, 10:16 PM
Leatherneck magazine has been printing awards to Marines since all this stuff in Iraq and Afghanistan started, if this guy has been awarded the Navy Cross, it is in the Leatherneck archives. If you have his name, give them a call and find out the straight scoop. The phone number in in each Leatherneck issue.

In regard to who should be confronted about this. The father may be living vicariously through his son.

His son should be intelligent enough to know that claiming to be a Navy Cross awardee is somewhat stupid, especially if you are on active duty and subject the UCMJ.

SGT7477
01-08-11, 10:27 PM
Hermit, I for one will tell you who are you to come in this forum and question anyone?? first thing first you havent even filled out a profile according to the rules of leatherneck.com so get busy and get that done first. gentlemen also let me remind some of you that the stolen valor act has been proven unconstitutional and is now under the eyes of our Supreme Court I dont believe they have ruled on it as of it. I for one dont have a problem burning someones arse for stolen valor, but as of now its up to the courts. Hermit get your profile done or get out of my house..
The Supreme court needs to open their frickin eyes, Semper Fidelis.:evilgrin:

Sgt Leprechaun
01-08-11, 11:46 PM
Seven deployments is certainly possible. Post up the name and any other information, I'll be able to tell you within minutes if he is a Navy Cross winner. It's a violation of the Stolen Valor act.

And it's only been ruled 'uncon' in one district, and quite frankly these records are easy to check. So post it and we'll dance with it.

semperfiman
01-09-11, 01:29 AM
sgt lep all due respect to you but we dont win medals we earn them Semper Fi bro

Sgt Leprechaun
01-09-11, 01:34 AM
True, I stand corrected. Sometimes even I slip into popular vernacular.

hermit
01-09-11, 07:56 AM
Hermit, I for one will tell you who are you to come in this forum and question anyone?? first thing first you havent even filled out a profile according to the rules of leatherneck.com so get busy and get that done first. gentlemen also let me remind some of you that the stolen valor act has been proven unconstitutional and is now under the eyes of our Supreme Court I dont believe they have ruled on it as of it. I for one dont have a problem burning someones arse for stolen valor, but as of now its up to the courts. Hermit get your profile done or get out of my house..

Sorry will take care of it right away.

hermit
01-09-11, 08:15 AM
His son's name is Chief Petty Officer Christopher Thorne stationed at Camp Pendleton part of the 13th MEU. The father's name is Erik "Bill" Thorne of Phoenix who sells real estate. Here is the father's contact information:

Bill Throne (http://www.leatherneck.com/AgentDetail.aspx?segmentid=4597337&uid=90865)
Principal Residential Group
3113 N. Third St.
Phoenix, AZ 85012
Cell 480-299-7150
Office 602-258-4416

sparkie
01-09-11, 08:31 AM
At least I found him

"This is going to be the first flights for them and they'll be getting oriented to the profiles of the aircraft, learning how to work in the aircraft and how to work with the aircrews," said Senior Chief Petty Officer Chris Thorne, the medical planner with the 13th MEU. "We're having to create this model from scratch because no other MEU's on the West Coast have been doing it…ever. It is a lost skill set. When we first talked about using the CH-46's for hoisting the litters it actually took everyone a little bit aback because it's just not a skill set that's trained for anymore; to do casualty hoisting into CH-46's. It's just a competency that hasn't been required or utilized."

http://www.i-mef.usmc.mil/external/13thmeu/news/news_2010_11_09.jsp

Could not find him with that medal, though. Looks like his dad has a son to be proud of.

hermit
01-09-11, 09:09 AM
At least I found him

"This is going to be the first flights for them and they'll be getting oriented to the profiles of the aircraft, learning how to work in the aircraft and how to work with the aircrews," said Senior Chief Petty Officer Chris Thorne, the medical planner with the 13th MEU. "We're having to create this model from scratch because no other MEU's on the West Coast have been doing it…ever. It is a lost skill set. When we first talked about using the CH-46's for hoisting the litters it actually took everyone a little bit aback because it's just not a skill set that's trained for anymore; to do casualty hoisting into CH-46's. It's just a competency that hasn't been required or utilized."

http://www.i-mef.usmc.mil/external/13thmeu/news/news_2010_11_09.jsp

Could not find him with that medal, though. Looks like his dad has a son to be proud of.

A son to be proud of without having to make up stories. His father made the claim before his name was known to other posters and found out that the story was a lie. Even then he still stood by the story, instead of admitting that he lied.

lcplwilson
01-09-11, 09:48 AM
How do you know this guy even has a son? It could all be a fabrication. I have met at least 5 fake Marines in my local watering hole over the last 3-4 years and it is a small suburb of Denver. So chew em up and spit them out. Semper Fi.

Mongoose
01-09-11, 12:50 PM
In my 63 years, Ive heard just about every lie you could think of told about military service. I dont know what gets into a person to try to be something theyre not. Mabey its shame that they didnt serve when they could have. Mabey its because they want to be a hero to thier children. Could be they just love the attention it gets. Most of the time common sense will repute those lies. Those of us that that have been there, know if it doesnt sound right, it usually isnt. However, there are times when, no matter how far out it seems, it will turn out to be true. We need to be careful when we accuse someone of not telling the truth. Least of all, we dont need to put our own character on the line. Having seen many acts of valor, and known many Marines of Honor, it leaves a bad taste in my mouth for someone to try to accomplish with a lie, what they couldnt do in life. To me its a slap in the face to the real heros , who dont have a need to publicize thier deeds.

Johndo
01-09-11, 08:05 PM
Maybe the father is just ignorant to the awards system and maybe got a NAM confused with a Navy cross.

Johndo
01-09-11, 08:32 PM
Couldn't edit my last post so this is a new one.

I looked for these posts on the Las Vegas journal and found nothing about the Navy Cross under greatday's posts.

hermit
01-09-11, 09:01 PM
Couldn't edit my last post so this is a new one.

I looked for these posts on the Las Vegas journal and found nothing about the Navy Cross under greatday's posts.

You have to go back years to find it.

DanM
01-09-11, 09:05 PM
Looks and sounds a bit like a "troll".

Osotogary
01-09-11, 09:28 PM
Maybe this is old news but it is the first time I have seen this. A fake hero ...for sure.
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/national/facebook_seducer_faux_gi_joe_jCgsYyHygvygXOIyFQF7Q O

Sgt Leprechaun
01-09-11, 10:25 PM
And those who say these people don't hurt other people, or 'what does it matter', have no idea the utter destruction they cause by their scumbaggery.

WXSgt
01-10-11, 05:50 PM
His son's name is Chief Petty Officer Christopher Thorne stationed at Camp Pendleton part of the 13th MEU. The father's name is Erik "Bill" Thorne of Phoenix who sells real estate. Here is the father's contact information:

Bill Throne (http://www.leatherneck.com/AgentDetail.aspx?segmentid=4597337&uid=90865)
Principal Residential Group
3113 N. Third St.
Phoenix, AZ 85012
Cell 480-299-7150
Office 602-258-4416

THATS MY DOC!!! i know him im with the 13th i can see tomorrow if he does have the navy cross

advanced
01-11-11, 02:07 AM
What a small world after all.

Sgt Leprechaun
01-12-11, 06:12 PM
There are no "Thorne"s listed in the Military Times Hall of Heroes database, which includes ALL citations dating back to the Civil War, as Navy Cross reciepients from the current conflict.

hermit
01-15-11, 07:50 AM
There are no "Thorne"s listed in the Military Times Hall of Heroes database, which includes ALL citations dating back to the Civil War, as Navy Cross reciepients from the current conflict.

Even after I pointed this out to his father, he still insisted that his son was awarded the Navy Cross.

advanced
01-15-11, 07:58 AM
At least it wasn't the son, or do you think his father has told him about his award?

Phantom Blooper
01-15-11, 08:11 AM
Are you sure this kids paperwork and citation was not lost in the GREAT FIRE?

In all seriousness the old man needs a reality check.....and maybe a good ass whupping from his proud of son.....

sparkie
01-15-11, 08:12 AM
I got a medal,,,, but I don't talk about it much,,,,,

http://www.jokeemail.com/pictures/medal_honor.jpg

Phantom Blooper
01-15-11, 08:14 AM
You got yours before me....how many stars do you have on yours....?

sparkie
01-15-11, 08:18 AM
1 fig leaf.

advanced
01-15-11, 08:27 AM
I know, I'm told there's a lot of these poser's down here in Florida though I've only run across a few of them.

At a motorcycle event awhile back for the American Legion Riders I was wearing my vest which has a Hue City patch on it. Through the crowd I hear "Hey Marine, were you at Hue City?" I said yeah and he came over, introduced himself and told me he was with the 1st Marines at Hue. I know they were there with the 2/5 in deep shiit south of the river (I was north).

Then he said something I had never heard before. He said to me, while he was getting something out of his wallet, if you were at Hue - let me see your disability card. He said "No one came out of Hue City without a 100% disability. I guess he thought I was a poser.

I started laughing as I pulled my card out of my wallet and let him inspect it. As he was looking at my card he started smiling and told me this is how most of the grunts in the area were having to check to see who was for real or not.

Then he bought me a beer and we musta talked for several hours. We're from about 10 miles apart originally down by the city, he married 5 times, me 4, etc. Funny how great minds with similar experiences think alike.

I've only run across a small number of Marines that were deep shiit with me over the years. God, it's the greatest thing in the world to talk to them and hug them and choke up with them, and to remember things I thought I had forgotten, but I hadn't. God, these and they are such good men. S/F

advanced
01-15-11, 09:01 AM
In sharp contrast to the posers, the people you are talking about are an honor to this country and what it stands for.

Yeah, but the point is it's getting to the point that we can't always trust each other when we first meet.

advanced
01-15-11, 09:11 AM
Good thing you have that card thing to separate the real from the unreal.

Yeah, lucky me. I don't know how I ever got by without that card. Separates the men from the boys.

advanced
01-15-11, 09:40 AM
And also separates the real veterans from the f.... posers.

Thanks Dave, I appreciate that. I really do.

Muskinman28
01-15-11, 09:48 AM
2 Words....Blanket Party!

SGT7477
01-15-11, 10:09 AM
I got a medal,,,, but I don't talk about it much,,,,,

http://www.jokeemail.com/pictures/medal_honor.jpg Only you Sparkie,lmfao Brother, Semper Fidelis.

advanced
01-15-11, 10:34 AM
How much time to I have to have in grade to get that one. Also, I think it would me nice if it also came with stars, don't you all agree.

I guess we could make it just between you and me, no one else has to know.

USNAviator
01-15-11, 10:37 AM
I've only run across a small number of Marines that were deep shiit with me over the years. God, it's the greatest thing in the world to talk to them and hug them and choke up with them, and to remember things I thought I had forgotten, but I hadn't. God, these and they are such good men. S/F

Great post!!! :thumbup:

advanced
01-15-11, 10:43 AM
Great post!!! :thumbup:

Thank you sir! S/F

advanced
01-15-11, 10:45 AM
Advanced, the easiest way to get that medal is to order one from the son's dad we talked about earlier, he is apparently knowledgeable about them, you might even get a Navy Cross out of it.

Hot Damn - I can add them to my other 2.

P.S. What color is the Navy Cross, you see I've never seen one. I need to know what to wear, but what the hell, it'll probably go with my jeans.

03Foxtrot
01-16-11, 12:50 PM
I agree that the problem of wannabes and posers has grown to become more common then not. There was a time when being a Viet-Nam veteran carried with it a stigma and there was a time when being a Marine combat vet was a lonely existence. Back then, and for a very long time afterward, no one else wanted to be one of us or pretend to have walked in our boots. We were assumed to be drug addicts and baby killers. War crimes and desertion were our public persona. I never accepted the national policy of false assumptions or indifference or misplaced anger directed at those of us who fought in this misunderstood war nor do I subscribe to making excuses for my behavior or looking for ways to explain what others perceive as either my stupidity or misplaced patriotism. I know why I served and I know what and how I performed my duties to my country and my Corps and myself. I make no apologies for my service or my actions and I will not ever take a back seat to anyone who seems to claim what is rightfully mine... the honor and courage and sacrifice by myself and those brave men that I served with. I believe that if the only way some of you feel that you are indeed in the presence of a combat brother from Viet-Nam is if they can produce a disability card or some other form of identification that makes you feel good, then you indeed have a flawed system of verification. I possess no such card and I'm sure I am only one of many who also take exception to being insulted in such a manner. I remain outside the system, by choice, and I'm sure there are many more like me. Part of my mistrust of people is also mistrust of our government, including the V.A. I am one of those nameless men who stood up when so many tried to elude their duty. The merits of this war, of any war, are foreign to the bravery and determination of those who fight the war, in the name of their nation. I served with many heroes and I will never allow some to steal the valor or the honor of these nameless men that I served with. I will always protect their contribution to the safety of our nation and I will always consider it part of my legacy as a survivor to stand up to those who try to protect themselves at the expense of others. My external wounds healed and left small scars, my internal injuries are still open and huge in size. Don't rewrite history and don't throw insults to others who deserve respect for their personal devotion to their buddies, their country, their Corps and themselves.
Semper Fidelis

Mongoose
01-16-11, 01:58 PM
03Foxtrot, I really dont think Russ was trying to be insulting. What he implies is that is a great way to silence a would be war hero. He realizes that not every Nam Marine is in the system. But if that person really isnt a poser and hes not in the system. He would no doubt understand and respond by saying, you know I was one of those lucky ones. I never had a need for the V.A. and Im sorry so many of our brothers were not as fortunate as I was. I served with bn/regt/div. 68-69. We pulled a lot of bush time in the Arizona Territory. An honest vet wont be intimidated. Just as you werent. I know Advanced, and the last man he would insult is an honest Marine that served in V.N. The card showing is just a quick way to cutout a needless story from a wannabe war hero. Its just hard to bear sometimes when someone that sat at home drinking beer and having fun, tells you a b.s. story out of his war journal. Im always cautious about calling a man out. But I can understand those that do. Theyre just fed up with the 12 million V.N. heros thats out there.

Swampfox
01-16-11, 02:35 PM
When I lived in New Orleans I used to frequent this little local bar. There was a fellow that used to hang out there that said he was a Navy Corpsman in a grunt unit in Vietnam. He absolutely would not believe that I was a Marine. I showed him my USMC tattoo and my VA card and still, for some reason, he thought I was lying about it. He would grill me on Marine Corps history and ask me a barrage of other questions. I always thought that it was strange for someone to think I'd lie about something like having been in the Corps. I guess I was wrong. I finally had to bring him to my house and show him pictures.

Mongoose
01-16-11, 03:11 PM
When I lived in New Orleans I used to frequent this little local bar. There was a fellow that used to hang out there that said he was a Navy Corpsman in a grunt unit in Vietnam. He absolutely would not believe that I was a Marine. I showed him my USMC tattoo and my VA card and still, for some reason, he thought I was lying about it. He would grill me on Marine Corps history and ask me a barrage of other questions. I always thought that it was strange for someone to think I'd lie about something like having been in the Corps. I guess I was wrong. I finally had to bring him to my house and show him pictures.
Swampfox, that might have been his way to keep you off balance. So you couldnt ask him any questions.

dibob
01-16-11, 03:18 PM
The only "disability card" I ever had was my report card from high school.

DanM
01-16-11, 06:03 PM
if anyone has dought about my earning the title,i carry a copy of my dd214 with me at all times....

DD214 doesn't prove anything,anyone can make one with a computer and printer.

SGT7477
01-16-11, 07:41 PM
I agree that the problem of wannabes and posers has grown to become more common then not. There was a time when being a Viet-Nam veteran carried with it a stigma and there was a time when being a Marine combat vet was a lonely existence. Back then, and for a very long time afterward, no one else wanted to be one of us or pretend to have walked in our boots. We were assumed to be drug addicts and baby killers. War crimes and desertion were our public persona. I never accepted the national policy of false assumptions or indifference or misplaced anger directed at those of us who fought in this misunderstood war nor do I subscribe to making excuses for my behavior or looking for ways to explain what others perceive as either my stupidity or misplaced patriotism. I know why I served and I know what and how I performed my duties to my country and my Corps and myself. I make no apologies for my service or my actions and I will not ever take a back seat to anyone who seems to claim what is rightfully mine... the honor and courage and sacrifice by myself and those brave men that I served with. I believe that if the only way some of you feel that you are indeed in the presence of a combat brother from Viet-Nam is if they can produce a disability card or some other form of identification that makes you feel good, then you indeed have a flawed system of verification. I possess no such card and I'm sure I am only one of many who also take exception to being insulted in such a manner. I remain outside the system, by choice, and I'm sure there are many more like me. Part of my mistrust of people is also mistrust of our government, including the V.A. I am one of those nameless men who stood up when so many tried to elude their duty. The merits of this war, of any war, are foreign to the bravery and determination of those who fight the war, in the name of their nation. I served with many heroes and I will never allow some to steal the valor or the honor of these nameless men that I served with. I will always protect their contribution to the safety of our nation and I will always consider it part of my legacy as a survivor to stand up to those who try to protect themselves at the expense of others. My external wounds healed and left small scars, my internal injuries are still open and huge in size. Don't rewrite history and don't throw insults to others who deserve respect for their personal devotion to their buddies, their country, their Corps and themselves.
Semper Fidelis
Read the book Stolen Valor, it's full of posers and wannabes who never served but bragged they were in Nam, Semper Fidelis.

Mongoose
01-16-11, 07:44 PM
Its sad its got to this point. I think I can talk to someone for a couple of min. and tell if hes a Marine vet. that served in V.N. In this new Corps with all thier changes and all thier deployments, I wouldnt know which way was up or down. I do know one thing. Im not fixing to start fliping out my V.A. card or my DD214 to prove to some azzhole I was in the Corps or anything else. And Im damn sure not going to bring them home with me to show them pictures. If I have to do all that, we wasnt meant to be friends. S/F

03Foxtrot
01-17-11, 07:50 AM
Like many of you, I too feel like I can see or hear or sense when something isn't right about someone's story. I have read the book 'Stolen Valor, How the VietNam Generation Was Robbed of It's Heroes And It's History', and I've had a copy of it for reference since it was published in 1998. I have never claimed to be any thing other then who and what I am, a Marine grunt who served with the 1st Marines in I Corps, Viet-Nam, circa 1968-69. I am no expert on a lot of subjects but on this particular endeavor, I can attest first hand knowledge and personal experiences and a lifetime of reading material from after action reports to declassified material on the various Operations and fire-fights that I was involved in. On a personal note, my first engagement of any consequence was when my platoon was on the move near dusk to establish a Platoon Patrol Base at a different location and we were ambushed. My first real contact and exchanging fire with the enemy and a whole lot of other firsts for me, including the death and wounding of several Marines, including my first combat officer, my Platoon Commander. My recollections of this incident for over 40 years were based on what I did and saw and heard and felt as a young ignorant boot Marine in his first battle with the enemy. All of my memories these many years were more emotional and mental and personal then they were based on material facts. It was only recently that I was able to locate and read the official after action reports about this incident and it was only then that I could grasp the situation from a different perspective. Someone else who may read and use the official reports to convey or present themselves as being there cannot in any way understand or present the fire-fight/ambush in the same way as someone that was there. Too many facts and precise dates and not enough substance is one of the ways that I can detect an impostor.. I always listen and treat other veterans stories with a respectful and honest open ear and it is only when I hear or sense that something is amiss that I may inquire further and I never speak without due diligence to historical accuracy. After all, memories that are for most of us, 40 plus years old, are sometimes wrong. I know from personal experience how the emotional and mental wounds are very fragile and how easy it is to awaken that which is better left asleep. What I learned from my own experiences that I have given as an example here is that my personal recollections of this ambush and the official report compliment each other and that when you put them together you have a much more complete and accurate picture of that incident and what I experienced. I and you may not have walked in each others shoes but many of us did share the same path and our journey is worthy of remembrance and respect for what we endured and accomplished with much blood shed for our country and our fellow Marine. I will never ask or expect to be asked to provide my DD-214 or other means of identification to someone that I meet. I will handle it on a more personal level and I will either fade away or confront them, both based on what they are trying to do. Stealing the honor and glory of brave men is not something that I can walk away from nor do I think my brothers will either.
Semper Fidelis

03Foxtrot
01-17-11, 10:18 AM
Dave (if I may),
I believe these people have no honor and so what you and I take for granted, they neither care about or understand. They have no concept of how this despicable act affects us or how we consider it paramount to disrespect for both the living and the dead. They seek that which is not theirs and in so doing, they insult and demean the sacrifice of our brothers on the Wall. I assume it is the valor and sacrifice and high esteem of those real veterans that these impostors are trying to acquire through deception and manipulation of facts. It is a great miscarriage of justice for the recent court rulings against the Stolen Valor Act. Still, I will not let these people change my trust and respect and love for my brothers who served with you and I in that same war of attrition. I will assume the best of a veteran and watch for the signs of a brother or a poser and react accordingly.
Semper Fi, Scott

Mongoose
01-17-11, 11:09 AM
Dave (if I may),
I believe these people have no honor and so what you and I take for granted, they neither care about or understand. They have no concept of how this despicable act affects us or how we consider it paramount to disrespect for both the living and the dead. They seek that which is not theirs and in so doing, they insult and demean the sacrifice of our brothers on the Wall. I assume it is the valor and sacrifice and high esteem of those real veterans that these impostors are trying to acquire through deception and manipulation of facts. It is a great miscarriage of justice for the recent court rulings against the Stolen Valor Act. Still, I will not let these people change my trust and respect and love for my brothers who served with you and I in that same war of attrition. I will assume the best of a veteran and watch for the signs of a brother or a poser and react accordingly.
Semper Fi, Scott
Scott, whats sad about it is they arent snot nosed kids or teen-agers. Theyre grown men in thier 50s and 60s mostly. I personally think that its insane that our GOVERMENT passes laws by the hand full, to protect the integrity of any group of mis-fits you can think of. But thinks so little of the integrity of U.S. veterens. And it could be because the same generation of V.N. posers is the same one running this Country. Our own generation. S/F

03Foxtrot
01-17-11, 11:57 AM
Billy,
Good point although I'm sure the majority of our generation cared more then and cares more now then the ones that came behind us. The audacity of our own generation of people who probably never served or maybe protested the war, now trying on an individual one on one effort to assume the mantle of military service to our nation during a time of war. There are times when I think the only reason that the current generation of military personnel get the public support and respect they deserve is because we refuse to allow them to be misaligned and forgotten as we were. The kids in school now, learn very little about the wars of America, except for the politically correct ones, WW I and WW II. From Korea onward, win or lose, why and how we were there, they seem to care not. Thank goodness there is still an abundance of brave and patriotic people willing to fight for our nation, despite the climate of discontent, just as in our war. Forget the war and the warrior becomes superfluous and when our own government encourages protection for the select while ignoring it's obligations to those who already served, is it any wonder that we feel distant to those we fought for ? I for one, will go to my grave confident and secure in the performance of my duties, accomplished to the best of my ability and I know the truth and that is really all that matters to me. My government is still ungrateful and can keep their money and ratings and compensation and leave me with the dignity and integrity and courage that I offered so long ago when my country called me to war. Respect is a two way street and when they disrespect the dead and the living from previous wars and at the same time ask the current generation to fight and die for the same government, I have to ask myself.... has anything really changed ?
Semper Fi, Scott

advanced
01-17-11, 12:15 PM
03Foxtrot - I always enjoy your posts and your depth, and your unique perspective. I do not enjoy some of your better than thou judgments though. In the story I told regarding "The Card" it was asked of me, not my asking anyone else as dcb188 has stated. Personally I would never ask anyone for verification of their veteran status, I have always relied upon my own in-depth perceptions for the meaning of my reality.

Why did I show my card, because I was there, it was available, I was asked, it cost nothing and it avoided alot of bs. With my first scan of the Marine who asked me for my card I could instantly tell he was one of us, why did he ask me for proof - perhaps he did not trust his own perceptions, maybe a hundred other reasons (I would only be guessing). The simple answer is; I don't know. It was only a story of an experience that I had a couple of months ago - So Chill Out.

In the late 80's I lost everything, including my 3rd wife. I heard an ad for the Vet Center on the radio listing that if any of these things were happening in your life and you were in Vietnam you may have PTSD. I had all of them though I had never heard of PTSD. I went to the vet center to get my wife back. I was in deep shiit pain-wise. I was diagnosed with PTSD.

Between the vet center and the VA I went through a process of 5-6 years of extensive 1 on1, group and shrinks and I emerged from the process with a better understanding of my experience and a 100% disability rating - they gave up on "helping" me because I would not take their drugs.

So you were a Marine in the Nam and you don't have a disability rating or "The Card" - well good for you. Perhaps you're a better man than I am. Perhaps you were a better Marine in every way than I was. I'll not apologize for my having PTSD. I did emerge from the therapy process with the tools to create a reasonable life though there was still the stigma of my diagnosis. I inherently knew there were those that would judge me as weak or a non-hacker, that somehow I was a lesser Marine. All I can say for those folks is f__ them.

Because of many of the reasons you exposed in your post of what it was like for us Nam Vets I have spent my entire life not letting anyone know I was a Nam Marine (excluding the vets I was in therapy with) until about 2 years ago. As you know there was a great stigma regarding us back then.

2 years ago my wife and I retired and I decided to "Come out of the closet as a Nam Marine." I'm a life member of the VFW and the DAV and I'm a member of the American Legion and it's Riders Group (I'm a biker). Wheather you have a "need" to join any of these groups or not is irrelevant, my choices. Everyone now knows that I'm a Nam Marine, those that have asked know where I was, they know that I'm a 100% PTSD combat vet - and most importantly they accept me with no judgments for who I am - they know me. I've been asked numerous times to be the riders group leader but I don't want any political in my life. I'm also invited to all the parties I choose to go to. Life is great. Oh, and by the way, no one here has ever heard me tell a single war story - I'm told they can see it in my eyes. That's just me.

Where I share some of my Nam experiences is here on this forum. Why, it's healing for ME. Here we are all Marines and many here have shared my sweat and mud, I do get pm's. I'm proud of what I did and who I was with and the men I served with.

One thing about where I live down here in Florida there are beaucoup military retires, veterans and snowbirds. And from what I've been told there are posers everywhere though I've only run across a few of them at biker events myself. Why so few, I'm not looking for them. I'm told we probably have more posers here then anywhere outside CA maybe.

In NC what works for you there may not work down here, I'm happy for you that your life has worked out. Maybe mine hasn't been that great by someone else's judgment, but, I'm a work in progress.

It's great that your Nam historian research parallels so much of your personal recollection of the Nam, as for me I don't even know where I was most of the time or the real names of many of the guys I was with. I'm told that PTSD is a deep emotional response to trauma that kinda washes over a great deal of ones cognitive memories. Where you imprinted everything with precise mental notes, I imprinted with precise emotional notes, to over simplify. Different maps, different territory, different experience. Be glad you didn't walk in my footsteps.

Back to the initial question "Why did I show my Card?" I guess for the same Bullshiit reasons I'm responding to this post.

Mongoose
01-17-11, 01:47 PM
I , in a way was lucky. In the early 70s I was court committed to a state hospital ( nut ward )5 times for being crazy. I didnt think I was crazy but enough people did , that they kept sending me back. My wife and the court system convinced me I did need help. I asked for it and I got it. It took several years, But my life improved greatly. Like Russ, in all these years , except family members not many even knew I served in the Corps. Never talked about it. I have 7 grown kids, 13 grandkids. Not one has ever heard a war story from me. All they ever knew was I served in the Corps in V.N. Two years ago, when I got this P.C. I didnt know there was sites like this you could go to. I was just looking around one day and seen a Marine looking for Marines that was in plt. 3321 in bootcamp. It was my bunkmate. Hes a member on L.N. ( RSTA ) It really made me feel good to be connected after 40+years. Since then I have found several Marines I served with. Like Russ my memory was kinda foggy . Most Marines I knew went by nick names in Nam. Its hard to look up a nick name. But whats great about it all is that Ive met Marines that understand what Im talking about. Some of the Marines on here mean the world to me. I would follow them to hell and cover thier back all the way. My loyalty didnt end with the war. What Im getting at is if I hadnt got help when I did, I dont think I would be typing this today. Having P.T.S.D. doesnt mean you failed. It means you gave up more than was expected. S/F

SGT7477
01-17-11, 02:33 PM
Like many of you, I too feel like I can see or hear or sense when something isn't right about someone's story. I have read the book 'Stolen Valor, How the VietNam Generation Was Robbed of It's Heroes And It's History', and I've had a copy of it for reference since it was published in 1998. I have never claimed to be any thing other then who and what I am, a Marine grunt who served with the 1st Marines in I Corps, Viet-Nam, circa 1968-69. I am no expert on a lot of subjects but on this particular endeavor, I can attest first hand knowledge and personal experiences and a lifetime of reading material from after action reports to declassified material on the various Operations and fire-fights that I was involved in. On a personal note, my first engagement of any consequence was when my platoon was on the move near dusk to establish a Platoon Patrol Base at a different location and we were ambushed. My first real contact and exchanging fire with the enemy and a whole lot of other firsts for me, including the death and wounding of several Marines, including my first combat officer, my Platoon Commander. My recollections of this incident for over 40 years were based on what I did and saw and heard and felt as a young ignorant boot Marine in his first battle with the enemy. All of my memories these many years were more emotional and mental and personal then they were based on material facts. It was only recently that I was able to locate and read the official after action reports about this incident and it was only then that I could grasp the situation from a different perspective. Someone else who may read and use the official reports to convey or present themselves as being there cannot in any way understand or present the fire-fight/ambush in the same way as someone that was there. Too many facts and precise dates and not enough substance is one of the ways that I can detect an impostor.. I always listen and treat other veterans stories with a respectful and honest open ear and it is only when I hear or sense that something is amiss that I may inquire further and I never speak without due diligence to historical accuracy. After all, memories that are for most of us, 40 plus years old, are sometimes wrong. I know from personal experience how the emotional and mental wounds are very fragile and how easy it is to awaken that which is better left asleep. What I learned from my own experiences that I have given as an example here is that my personal recollections of this ambush and the official report compliment each other and that when you put them together you have a much more complete and accurate picture of that incident and what I experienced. I and you may not have walked in each others shoes but many of us did share the same path and our journey is worthy of remembrance and respect for what we endured and accomplished with much blood shed for our country and our fellow Marine. I will never ask or expect to be asked to provide my DD-214 or other means of identification to someone that I meet. I will handle it on a more personal level and I will either fade away or confront them, both based on what they are trying to do. Stealing the honor and glory of brave men is not something that I can walk away from nor do I think my brothers will either.
Semper Fidelis
:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:, Semper Fidelis.

03Foxtrot
01-17-11, 03:40 PM
I agree to the extent of your main point. But we all know that perception is the reality that most people go with. This is not a victimless crime. We all loose when some drug user wears a bush cover with Marine Corps patches on it and commits a crime or when some alcoholic street person begs for money to eat and then goes to the nearest store to buy more beer. Even worse, to me, is when there is some calculating politician that uses the patriotism of our country to get votes by embellishing his own military service.
Yes, you can't steal valor or sacrifice or dedication to our country and fellow Marines, but you can take away the public perception of honest reality versus dishonest deception.
By the way, anyone that I offended by my earlier posts on this subject was unintentional and for that I apologize, but I still believe that my opinion has as much merit as the next mans. I am neither superior nor inferior to any other poster on here and I have always acted in a manner that is respectful. I too suffer from what many on here know to be a life time sentence of internal retribution for our experiences in this war and rather in or out of the system, I have always considered us brothers forever. Our heightened hyper alertness also comes with a heightened hyper sensitivity to real or imagined attacks against our integrity or honor. I am no man's enemy on here, I am your brother and I ask only for the same patience and compassion that I try to show for my brothers who reside in my heart and on the Wall in Washington, D.C. It is time for me to return to the bunker for awhile. Peace to all of you.
Semper Fi, Scott

advanced
01-17-11, 04:15 PM
03Foxtrot - Peace Brother S/F

03Foxtrot
01-17-11, 04:36 PM
Dave, Not necessary, but thanks.

Russ, You have my admiration and I'm a bit envious. I'm still in that place where no matter how many people surround me, I'm still alone. Take care of yourself and your family. I got your six !
Semper Fi, Scott

Sgt Leprechaun
01-17-11, 05:32 PM
Well done, ALL of you, for taking this to the higher level. This has been (and I hope will continue to be) a fine example for everyone to read.

"Stolen valor" by Burkett should be required reading for EVERY school kid, reporter and politician, as well as police officer.

One thing I must add, though, is NOT having a VA card doesn't mean you didn't get awards, or weren't 'there'. (And as Stolen Valor points out, there are people out there running around with 100 percent VA cards who never served a DAY in uniform....).

Sad to say that anymore I take with a grain of salt ANYone who starts off making claims about this, that, or the other. Maybe it's just the 'cop' in me but I've seen and heard too much and dealt with too many posers over the years to just take anything or anyone at face value. At least initially.

FistFu68
01-17-11, 07:34 PM
:evilgrin: All I have 2 do is Look into a Man's eyes and the Firmness of His Handshake tell's Me where He's been...S/F That :iwo:

hermit
01-18-11, 07:18 AM
I have always had a lot of respect for those that have served. But after reading the posts on this thread my respect has shot up and over the respect meter. Thank you to all that served in the name of this country.

kaelobo
01-18-11, 07:52 AM
Sorry iam late i was just reading this, what do you mean card,only card i have is the va card, i had my military card once lost that, i never thought about carry dd214 around. i never yet have even talk to a nam vet in a bar or outside the va, and if idid what do you say to lying ,S,O,B, but iam sure anyone could read a book about vn and put up a good fight, in group some guys get so nerves stutter trying to talk about nam, i agree only real way is eye to eye, if any body ever ask me for my card ant happening, only if they show me naked pictures of his wife, just my thought about this .....................usmc

Mongoose
01-18-11, 10:23 AM
Sorry iam late i was just reading this, what do you mean card,only card i have is the va card, i had my military card once lost that, i never thought about carry dd214 around. i never yet have even talk to a nam vet in a bar or outside the va, and if idid what do you say to lying ,S,O,B, but iam sure anyone could read a book about vn and put up a good fight, in group some guys get so nerves stutter trying to talk about nam, i agree only real way is eye to eye, if any body ever ask me for my card ant happening, only if they show me naked pictures of his wife, just my thought about this .....................usmc
Thats a good one Bob!

hermit
01-18-11, 12:40 PM
Thanks, hermit, but the credit goes to 03Foxtrot mainly. But there's one little detail left for you to do----join up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Too old at this late date.

hermit
01-20-11, 02:37 PM
THATS MY DOC!!! i know him im with the 13th i can see tomorrow if he does have the navy cross

Could you also find out if he has been deployed to the ME 6 or 7 times like his father claims he has.

silentman972
01-20-11, 02:53 PM
become his friend and invite him over for dinner with people who actually were in combat with his son bust his bubble in front of his son

03Foxtrot
01-21-11, 08:19 AM
dcb188 (Dave),
There is no credit by anyone on this thread, certainly not expected by me. Misunderstandings are common among us and since I have such difficulty getting my words out to properly express how I feel, I am no stranger to having to explain my own thoughts. That is a problem on a public forum where your audience is so varied and can be receptive or not. I have learned over the years to try to control my emotions that otherwise would get me into a situation that probably wasn't intended. I told my son recently that if you are quick to anger then you allow others to control you or manipulate you. I try very hard to have patience with others and sometimes it works. On this forum, about a subject that is near and dear to me, I go out of my way to speak only what is in my heart. My memories are all based on emotional and mental images from long ago and the only research I've done is to look at the recently released official records of USMC from the Viet-Nam War period. The ambush I was referring to in my earlier post has always haunted me. The only thing I really found out was the time and place and how many enemy and Marines were involved, along with the total casualties, Marine and enemy and that a reactionary force with tanks that was sent out to us was also ambushed. So this information along with my own personal recollections and the battle itself, imprinted on me forever, helped me have a little closure on this special day in my life. Rest in peace, 2Lt. Herbert Edgar Ing III, USMC, KIA 23 December 1968. Semper Fi

figbey
01-21-11, 09:17 AM
I've been through that with a couple of people

Just let it go - people realize that he is a jerk

Sgt Leprechaun
01-21-11, 06:08 PM
Yeah, cut it loose. I think we've figured out that the person in question isn't the one donig it, it's his father, for whatever reason. Therefore, this one is closed for the good of all concerned. Case solved.